• Messages attributes in FTSC docs

    From Fabio Bizzi@2:335/364.1 to All on Sat Mar 21 19:14:52 2020
    Hello All!

    I don't know if this is the right conference (I looked at the rules but I didin't understand if this is the right echo), if it isn't, my apologies.

    Where I can find in the FTSC docs the meanings of the message attributes and the expected behaviour of the tosser when it has to process them?

    I have some doubts expecially on the LOCal attribute.

    Many thanks.

    Ciao!
    Fabio

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ]\/[imac Rebirth Boss Point (2:335/364.1)
  • From Rob Swindell to Fabio Bizzi on Sat Mar 21 13:18:57 2020
    Re: Messages attributes in FTSC docs
    By: Fabio Bizzi to All on Sat Mar 21 2020 07:14 pm

    Hello All!

    I don't know if this is the right conference (I looked at the rules but I didin't understand if this is the right echo), if it isn't, my apologies.

    Where I can find in the FTSC docs the meanings of the message attributes and the expected behaviour of the tosser when it has to process them?

    The type 2 packet format (along with the attributes field) is defined (rather poorly) in http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-0001.016

    No mention of echomail or tossers in that document.

    "Conference mail" or what has become known as "EchoMail" was defined in http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-0004.001

    No mention of message attributes or how they are to be treated by mail processors.

    I have some doubts expecially on the LOCal attribute.

    When you say "doubts", do you mean "questions"?
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Fabio Bizzi on Sat Mar 21 23:14:46 2020
    Where I can find in the FTSC docs the meanings of the message attributes and the expected behaviour of the tosser when it has to process them?

    Try 'ftsc.org'

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 4
    * Origin: If you build it he will come (2:292/854)
  • From Fabio Bizzi@2:335/364.3 to Ward Dossche on Sat Mar 21 23:57:13 2020
    Hello, Ward Dossche.
    On 21/03/20 23:14 you wrote:

    Where I can find in the FTSC docs the meanings of the message
    attributes and the expected behaviour of the tosser when it has
    to process them?
    Try 'ftsc.org'

    :/

    I've looked in ftsc.org but I haven't found the right article, so I'm asking here about the right one. :)

    Or do I have to bribe someone with a pack of pink toilet paper? :P
    --
    Ciao! :)
    Fabio.
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: ]\/[imac boss android point (2:335/364.3)
  • From Fabio Bizzi@2:335/364.3 to Ward Dossche on Sun Mar 22 00:15:10 2020
    Hello, Ward Dossche.
    On 21/03/20 23:57 you wrote:

    Where I can find in the FTSC docs the meanings of the message
    attributes and the expected behaviour of the tosser when it has
    to process them?
    Try 'ftsc.org'
    :/ I've looked in ftsc.org but I haven't found the right article,
    so I'm asking here about the right one. :) Or do I have to bribe
    someone with a pack of pink toilet paper? :P
    Ok, before I missed the magic "Doc Search" field, and now I fond two documents,
    the fsc-0036.001 and the fsc-0053.002.

    But I still don't understand what a mail processor or tosser has to do when a message has the MSGLOCAL attribute set. :)

    Thank you. ;)

    --
    Ciao! :)
    Fabio.
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: ]\/[imac boss android point (2:335/364.3)
  • From Rob Swindell to Fabio Bizzi on Sat Mar 21 16:28:19 2020
    Re: Re: Messages attributes in FTSC docs
    By: Fabio Bizzi to Ward Dossche on Sun Mar 22 2020 12:15 am

    Hello, Ward Dossche.
    On 21/03/20 23:57 you wrote:

    Where I can find in the FTSC docs the meanings of the message
    attributes and the expected behaviour of the tosser when it has
    to process them?
    Try 'ftsc.org'
    :/ I've looked in ftsc.org but I haven't found the right article,
    so I'm asking here about the right one. :) Or do I have to bribe someone with a pack of pink toilet paper? :P
    Ok, before I missed the magic "Doc Search" field, and now I fond two documents, the fsc-0036.001 and the fsc-0053.002.

    But I still don't understand what a mail processor or tosser has to do when a message has the MSGLOCAL attribute set. :)

    The answer is, most likely: nothing.

    SBBSecho (the echomail program, "tosser", that I have developed and supported for 25+ years) sets the "LOCAL" attribute on exported echomail messages and strips it from imported echomail messages.

    The only the types of files that SBBSecho actually checks/cares about the LOCAL attribute are NetMail "stored message files" (*.msg).
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384.125 to Fabio Bizzi on Sun Mar 22 09:39:14 2020
    Hi! Fabio,

    On 03/22/2020 12:15 AM,you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    But I still don't understand what a mail processor or tosser has to do when a message has the MSGLOCAL attribute set. :)

    From experience I have found that _a_ tosser would -not- export a message without the LOC attribute being set. I now recall that I was experimenting with the MPost utility... many moons ago.

    In short: the LOC attribute must be _set_ in order to send the subject message.

    NB. Do not confuse it with the LOCK attribute. Different beast. :)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: So where the bloody hell are you?!? (3:640/1384.125)
  • From Fabio Bizzi@2:335/364.3 to Paul Quinn on Sun Mar 22 01:12:04 2020
    Hello, Paul Quinn.
    On 22/03/20 09:39 you wrote:

    Hi! Fabio, On 03/22/2020 12:15 AM,you wrote to Ward Dossche:
    But I still don't understand what a mail processor or tosser has
    to do when a message has the MSGLOCAL attribute set. :)
    From experience I have found that _a_ tosser would -not- export a
    message without the LOC attribute being set. I now recall that I
    was experimenting with the MPost utility... many moons ago. In
    short: the LOC attribute must be _set_ in order to send the
    subject message. NB. Do not confuse it with the LOCK attribute. Different beast. :)
    Thank you Paul, I'll do some tests! :)
    --
    Ciao! :)
    Fabio.
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: ]\/[imac boss android point (2:335/364.3)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Fabio Bizzi on Sun Mar 22 10:16:55 2020
    Re: Re: Messages attributes in FTSC docs
    By: Fabio Bizzi to Ward Dossche on Sun Mar 22 2020 00:15:10


    But I still don't understand what a mail processor or tosser has
    to do when a message has the MSGLOCAL attribute set. :)

    generally speaking, a message has the LOCAL attribute when the message is created by a local user... this can be done by manually writting while logged into the bbs or by uploading the message via offline mail...

    the LOCAL attribute is used by the mail tosser to know which messages it can scan out when it processes outbound mail... the LOCAL attribute is generally cleared from the packed message but left alone in the live message still in the
    message base...

    TL;DR

    the LOCAL attribute separated locally written messages from imported messages so the tosser knows which ones it can scan out...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Michael Dukelsky@2:5020/1042 to Paul Quinn on Sun Mar 22 17:21:58 2020
    Hello Paul,

    Sunday March 22 2020, Paul Quinn wrote to Fabio Bizzi:

    But I still don't understand what a mail processor or tosser has
    to do when a message has the MSGLOCAL attribute set. :)

    From experience I have found that _a_ tosser would -not- export a
    message without the LOC attribute being set. I now recall that I was experimenting with the MPost utility... many moons ago.

    In short: the LOC attribute must be _set_ in order to send the subject message.

    It is rather strange. The Loc attribute is set on a locally created message to differentiate it from a message received from another system. So what is the point of sending a message with the Loc attrubute set? The system receiving the
    message will consider the message is created locally.

    Michael

    ... node (at) f1042 (dot) ru
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Moscow, Russia (2:5020/1042)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Michael Dukelsky on Sun Mar 22 11:48:09 2020
    Re: Messages attributes in FTSC docs
    By: Michael Dukelsky to Paul Quinn on Sun Mar 22 2020 17:21:58


    In short: the LOC attribute must be _set_ in order to send the subject message.

    It is rather strange. The Loc attribute is set on a locally created
    message to
    differentiate it from a message received from another system. So what is
    the
    point of sending a message with the Loc attrubute set? The system
    receiving the
    message will consider the message is created locally.

    correct... which is why the LOCAL attribute is cleared in *packed* messages... this is SOP for decades...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Fabio Bizzi@2:335/364.1 to mark lewis on Sun Mar 22 17:08:44 2020
    Hello mark!

    22 Mar 20 10:16, you wrote to me:

    generally speaking, a message has the LOCAL attribute when the message
    [...]

    Thank you Mark.

    Ciao!
    Fabio

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ]\/[imac Rebirth Boss Point (2:335/364.1)
  • From Joachim Probst@2:240/6309 to Michael Dukelsky on Sun Mar 22 23:36:52 2020
    Hello Michael!

    22 Mar 20 17:21, you wrote to Paul Quinn:

    From experience I have found that _a_ tosser would -not- export a
    message without the LOC attribute being set. I now recall that I
    was experimenting with the MPost utility... many moons ago.

    In short: the LOC attribute must be _set_ in order to send the
    subject message.

    It is rather strange. The Loc attribute is set on a locally created message to differentiate it from a message received from another
    system. So what is the point of sending a message with the Loc
    attrubute set? The system receiving the message will consider the
    message is created locally.

    Interesting point: With checking the stored message format and the attributes definition there in FTSC 0001 the Local attribute is NOT zeroed on export. Hmm.
    I would have guessed, it's a local created message, but the attribute is purged
    on export. Interesting point. In this case the tosser should ignore it while tossing, but even there it is not noted as a need-not-be-recognized attribute.

    Will read on here, might get interesting :)

    Joachim


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    * Origin: ----> FidoPI (2:240/6309)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Joachim Probst on Sun Mar 22 19:00:01 2020
    Re: Messages attributes in FTSC docs
    By: Joachim Probst to Michael Dukelsky on Sun Mar 22 2020 23:36:52


    Interesting point: With checking the stored message format and the
    attributes
    definition there in FTSC 0001 the Local attribute is NOT zeroed on export.
    Hmm.
    I would have guessed, it's a local created message, but the attribute is
    purged
    on export. Interesting point. In this case the tosser should ignore it
    while
    tossing, but even there it is not noted as a need-not-be-recognized
    attribute.

    yes, if you receive messages with the local bit set, your tosser should turn it
    off... additionally, it would be nice to let the maintainer of the flawed tosser know that they are emitting the local attribute when they should not be... but that depends on finding out the tosser and the maintainer...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Michael Dukelsky@2:5020/1042 to Joachim Probst on Tue Mar 24 13:40:32 2020
    Hello Joachim,

    Sunday March 22 2020, Joachim Probst wrote to Michael Dukelsky:

    In short: the LOC attribute must be _set_ in order to send the
    subject message.

    It is rather strange. The Loc attribute is set on a locally
    created message to differentiate it from a message received from
    another system. So what is the point of sending a message with
    the Loc attrubute set? The system receiving the message will
    consider the message is created locally.

    Interesting point: With checking the stored message format and the attributes definition there in FTSC 0001 the Local attribute is NOT
    zeroed on export.

    The attributes marked with "+" in http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-0001.016 are not zeroed before packeting. The Local attribute is not marked with "+". So it may be zeroed. And from my point of view it must be zeroed during packeting.

    Hmm. I would have guessed, it's a local created
    message, but the attribute is purged on export.

    Exactly.

    Michael

    ... node (at) f1042 (dot) ru
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Moscow, Russia (2:5020/1042)
  • From Joachim Probst@2:240/6309 to Michael Dukelsky on Tue Mar 24 22:31:54 2020
    Hi Michael!

    24 Mar 20 13:40, you wrote to me:

    It is rather strange. The Loc attribute is set on a locally
    created message to differentiate it from a message received from
    another system. So what is the point of sending a message with
    the Loc attrubute set? The system receiving the message will
    consider the message is created locally.

    Interesting point: With checking the stored message format and
    the attributes definition there in FTSC 0001 the Local attribute
    is NOT zeroed on export.

    You are absolutly right, must have been to late that day ...
    And that's the way it makes sense.

    Michael

    Joachim


    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
    * Origin: ----> FidoPI (2:240/6309)
  • From Fabio Bizzi@2:335/364.1 to Rob Swindell on Wed Mar 25 08:44:44 2020
    Hello Rob!

    21 Mar 20 13:18, you wrote to me:

    The type 2 packet format (along with the attributes field) is defined
    [...]

    Thank you! :)

    I have some doubts expecially on the LOCal attribute.

    When you say "doubts", do you mean "questions"?

    I'm a bit confused now. :)
    How do you say when you're not sure about a thing?

    Ciao!
    Fabio

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ]\/[imac Rebirth Boss Point (2:335/364.1)
  • From Fabio Bizzi@2:335/364.1 to Rob Swindell on Wed Mar 25 08:46:52 2020
    Hello Rob!

    21 Mar 20 16:28, you wrote to me:

    But I still don't understand what a mail processor or tosser has to
    do when a message has the MSGLOCAL attribute set. :)

    The answer is, most likely: nothing.

    :O

    SBBSecho (the echomail program, "tosser", that I have developed and supported for 25+ years) sets the "LOCAL" attribute on exported
    echomail messages and strips it from imported echomail messages.

    This sounds strange, The LOCal attribuste shoudn't identify the local originated messages like the one we write with our editor in our msgbase?

    Once exported in a mail packet the LOCal attribute shouldn't be trimmed to zero?

    The only the types of files that SBBSecho actually checks/cares about
    the LOCAL attribute are NetMail "stored message files" (*.msg).

    I did some tests with my golded and HPT as tosser these are the results:

    NETMAIL:
    - Message saved without the LOC (Local) Attribute: EXPORTED.
    - Message saved with the LOCK (Locked) Attribute: NOT EXPORTED.

    ECHOMAIL:
    - Message saved without the LOC (Local) Attribute: NOT EXPORTED.
    - Message saved with the LOCK (Locked) Attribute: NOT EXPORTED.

    What do you think about it?

    Many thansk again. :)

    Ciao!
    Fabio

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ]\/[imac Rebirth Boss Point (2:335/364.1)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Fabio Bizzi on Wed Mar 25 10:08:33 2020
    Re: Messages attributes in FTSC docs
    By: Fabio Bizzi to Rob Swindell on Wed Mar 25 2020 08:46:52


    SBBSecho (the echomail program, "tosser", that I have developed and
    supported for 25+ years) sets the "LOCAL" attribute on exported
    echomail messages and strips it from imported echomail messages.

    This sounds strange, The LOCal attribuste shoudn't identify the local originated messages like the one we write with our editor in our msgbase?

    Once exported in a mail packet the LOCal attribute shouldn't be trimmed
    to zero?

    rob is speaking of how sbbsecho exports from a proprietary message format to standard FTN MSG format... at that point is where sbbsecho works with FTN standards... the proprietary message base format that sbbs uses has other means
    of identifying locally and non-locally written messages...

    plus, he's not spoken of packing netmails or echomail into packets... that's another part of the process...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Fabio Bizzi@2:335/364.1 to mark lewis on Wed Mar 25 17:15:10 2020
    Hello mark!

    25 Mar 20 10:08, you wrote to me:

    [...]

    rob is speaking of how sbbsecho exports from a proprietary message
    format to standard FTN MSG format... at that point is where sbbsecho
    works with FTN standards... the proprietary message base format that
    sbbs uses has other means of identifying locally and non-locally
    written messages...

    plus, he's not spoken of packing netmails or echomail into packets... that's another part of the process...

    Ah ok,thank you, now it sounds good! :)

    Ciao!
    Fabio

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ]\/[imac Rebirth Boss Point (2:335/364.1)
  • From Rob Swindell to Fabio Bizzi on Thu Mar 26 21:54:54 2020
    Re: Messages attributes in FTSC docs
    By: Fabio Bizzi to Rob Swindell on Wed Mar 25 2020 08:44 am

    Hello Rob!

    21 Mar 20 13:18, you wrote to me:

    The type 2 packet format (along with the attributes field) is defined
    [...]

    Thank you! :)

    I have some doubts expecially on the LOCal attribute.

    When you say "doubts", do you mean "questions"?

    I'm a bit confused now. :)
    How do you say when you're not sure about a thing?

    If I want someone else to clarify something, then I have a question. If someone has stated something that I think might be untrue, then I have a doubt.
  • From Rob Swindell to Fabio Bizzi on Thu Mar 26 21:58:27 2020
    Re: Messages attributes in FTSC docs
    By: Fabio Bizzi to Rob Swindell on Wed Mar 25 2020 08:46 am

    Hello Rob!

    21 Mar 20 16:28, you wrote to me:

    But I still don't understand what a mail processor or tosser has to
    do when a message has the MSGLOCAL attribute set. :)

    The answer is, most likely: nothing.

    :O

    SBBSecho (the echomail program, "tosser", that I have developed and supported for 25+ years) sets the "LOCAL" attribute on exported echomail messages and strips it from imported echomail messages.

    This sounds strange, The LOCal attribuste shoudn't identify the local originated messages like the one we write with our editor in our msgbase?

    It could. It could also represent messages that were uploaded to the BBS via QWK. Or if the BBS supports NNTP, SMTP or any other transport, messages that were posted in that manner. These messages are still locally-created with relation to the rest of FidoNet.

    Once exported in a mail packet the LOCal attribute shouldn't be trimmed to zero?

    I don't think it really matters. It's obvious once a packet has been received from any system that it was not a local message - regardless of that attribute flag value.

    The only the types of files that SBBSecho actually checks/cares about the LOCAL attribute are NetMail "stored message files" (*.msg).

    I did some tests with my golded and HPT as tosser these are the results:

    NETMAIL:
    - Message saved without the LOC (Local) Attribute: EXPORTED.
    - Message saved with the LOCK (Locked) Attribute: NOT EXPORTED.

    ECHOMAIL:
    - Message saved without the LOC (Local) Attribute: NOT EXPORTED.
    - Message saved with the LOCK (Locked) Attribute: NOT EXPORTED.

    What do you think about it?

    No real opinion.
  • From Fabio Bizzi@2:335/364.1 to Rob Swindell on Fri Mar 27 09:10:30 2020
    Hello Rob!

    26 Mar 20 21:54, you wrote to me:

    When you say "doubts", do you mean "questions"?

    I'm a bit confused now. :)
    How do you say when you're not sure about a thing?

    If I want someone else to clarify something, then I have a question.
    If someone has stated something that I think might be untrue, then I
    have a doubt.

    I think it's a different way to look at things.

    I've noticed it in the periodic surveys that my company send to us.

    I work for an international telecomminications company based in UK and our italian managers told us that in a possibile range of values that starts from wery bad to very good only the far extremes are considered, the middle is not interesting.

    Wheny here we say "I have a doubt" we mean "I'm not sure about it" that also means that I trust you but I still don't understand something and I'd like to discuss with you. :)

    Anyway many thanks for your help! :)

    Ciao!
    Fabio

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ]\/[imac Rebirth Boss Point (2:335/364.1)
  • From Rob Swindell to Fabio Bizzi on Fri Mar 27 20:16:38 2020
    Re: Messages attributes in FTSC docs
    By: Fabio Bizzi to Rob Swindell on Fri Mar 27 2020 09:10 am

    Hello Rob!

    26 Mar 20 21:54, you wrote to me:

    When you say "doubts", do you mean "questions"?

    I'm a bit confused now. :)
    How do you say when you're not sure about a thing?

    If I want someone else to clarify something, then I have a question.
    If someone has stated something that I think might be untrue, then I have a doubt.

    I think it's a different way to look at things.

    I've noticed it in the periodic surveys that my company send to us.

    I work for an international telecomminications company based in UK and our italian managers told us that in a possibile range of values that starts from wery bad to very good only the far extremes are considered, the middle is not interesting.

    Wheny here we say "I have a doubt" we mean "I'm not sure about it" that also means that I trust you but I still don't understand something and I'd like to discuss with you. :)

    Yeah, I noticed that tendancy from non-US English speaking countries.

    But here in the US, "doubt" has a more negative connotation: more like "I don't believe someone/thing" or "I don't trust someone/thing".

    Anyway many thanks for your help! :)

    Anytime!
  • From Fabio Bizzi@2:335/364.1 to Rob Swindell on Sat Mar 28 11:14:58 2020
    Hello Rob!

    27 Mar 20 20:16, you wrote to me:

    But here in the US, "doubt" has a more negative connotation: more like
    "I don't believe someone/thing" or "I don't trust someone/thing".

    Thank you for the hint, I'll keep it in mind for the next times. ;)

    Ciao!
    Fabio

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ]\/[imac Rebirth Boss Point (2:335/364.1)