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  • Desired FTSC document: seen/known kludges

    From Rob Swindell to All on Thu Mar 21 13:45:46 2019
    I would like to see the FTSC put out a living (regularly-updated) document which lists all the observed "control lines" (a.k.a. "kludge lines") types in FTN messages (netmail and echomail) along with each control keyword's:

    1. current status (e.g. "standard", "non-standard", "deprecated")
    2. description of known use, if available
    3. official/detailed document reference (e.g. link to FTS document)
    4. examples
    5. software compatibilities or incompatbilities, if known

    Thanks,

    -Rob
  • From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to Rob Swindell on Fri Mar 22 03:01:21 2019
    Hello Rob!

    21 Mar 19 13:45, you wrote to all:

    I would like to see the FTSC put out a living (regularly-updated)
    document which lists all the observed "control lines" (a.k.a. "kludge lines") types in FTN messages (netmail and echomail) along with each control keyword's:

    1. current status (e.g. "standard", "non-standard", "deprecated")
    2. description of known use, if available
    3. official/detailed document reference (e.g. link to FTS document)
    4. examples
    5. software compatibilities or incompatbilities, if known

    This seems like a good idea. I'll see what we can do.

    Andrew

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: Phoenix BBS * phoenix.bnbbbs.net (1:320/219)
  • From Fred Riccio@1:132/174 to Rob Swindell on Fri Mar 22 13:09:28 2019
    21 Mar 19 13:45, Rob Swindell wrote to All:

    I would like to see the FTSC put out a living (regularly-updated) document
    which lists all the observed "control lines" (a.k.a. "kludge lines") types in
    FTN messages (netmail and echomail) along with each control
    keyword's:

    Here is a start...

    Its from the messages I have laying around, both echo and Netmail. Some are really old so the tosser that created them may not even be in use any more.


    ----- kludge.lst begins -----
    TID FIDO_UTL Msg#1
    MSGID FIDO_UTL Msg#1
    TZUTC FIDO_UTL Msg#2
    CHRS FIDO_UTL Msg#2
    CODEPAGE FIDO_UTL Msg#2
    REPLY FIDO_UTL Msg#3
    PID FIDO_UTL Msg#14
    CHARSET FIDO_UTL Msg#17
    RFC-X-No-Archive FN_SYSOP Msg#13
    FN_SYSOP Msg#70
    RealName FIDO_SYS Msg#226
    Email FIDO_SYS Msg#226
    ICQ FIDO_SYS Msg#226
    NOTE FIDO_SYS Msg#535
    FWDORIG 1 FIDO_SYS Msg#788
    FWDMSGID 1 FIDO_SYS Msg#788
    E-î佫 BINKD Msg#32
    REPLYTO BINKD Msg#774
    REPLYADDR BINKD Msg#774
    INTL 3 BINKD Msg#863
    REPLYTO 3 BINKD Msg#863
    Voice FTSC_PUB Msg#1223
    COLS FTSC_PUB Msg#1999
    TAG Z1Elect Msg#249
    RESCANNED 1 NECHAT Msg#1
    RFC-References NECHAT Msg#39
    RFC-Path NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-Sender NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-Message-ID NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-NNTP-Posting-Hos NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-X-Trace NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-X-Complaints-To NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-NNTP-Posting-Dat NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-X-Newsreader NECHAT Msg#144
    SPTH NECHAT Msg#270
    RFC-In-Reply-To NECHAT Msg#463
    GID FNLADMIN Msg#1
    REPLYTO 1 NH_4SALE Msg#1
    Path NH_4SALE Msg#517
    From NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Subject NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Lines NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-Priority NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-MSMail-Priority NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-Newsreader NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-MimeOLE NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Message-ID NH_4SALE Msg#517
    NNTP-Posting-Host NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-Complaints-To NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-Trace NH_4SALE Msg#517
    NNTP-Posting-Date NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Organization NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Date NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Xref NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-Cache NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Mime-Version NH_4SALE Msg#518
    Content-Type NH_4SALE Msg#518
    Content-Transfer-Enc NH_4SALE Msg#518
    X-WebTV-Signature NH_4SALE Msg#518
    Content-Disposition NH_4SALE Msg#518
    Via SLMAIL v5.1 (#S IREX Msg#254
    X-No-Archive IREX Msg#282
    GIF IREX Msg#351
    [la2.c4 IREX Msg#359
    [location IREX Msg#359
    MOOD IREX Msg#1123
    Sender NH_GENRL Msg#294
    References NH_GENRL Msg#294
    REPLYTO 2 BINKLEY Msg#54
    RFC BINKLEY Msg#54
    GATEWAY BINKLEY Msg#54
    RFC-From BINKLEY Msg#172
    RFC-Organization BINKLEY Msg#172
    GMD ARGUS Msg#796
    REPLYADDR 2 ARGUS Msg#876
    book ARGUS Msg#1265
    Posted ARGUS Msg#1958
    RFC-Mime-Version ARGUS Msg#1972
    RFC-Content-Type ARGUS Msg#1972
    Call ARGUS Msg#1996
    Location ARGUS Msg#1996
    FWDDEST 1 TUB Msg#558
    GATE TUB Msg#630
    GATE-MSGID TUB Msg#630
    GATE-REPLY TUB Msg#630
    ----- kludge.lst ends -----

    --- Msged/NT 6.0.1
    * Origin: Somewhere in New Hampshire's White Mountains (1:132/174)
  • From Ozz Nixon@1:275/362 to Rob Swindell on Fri Mar 22 11:12:05 2019
    On 2019-03-21 20:45:46 +0000, Rob Swindell -> All said:

    I would like to see the FTSC put out a living (regularly-updated) document which lists all the observed "control lines" (a.k.a. "kludge lines") types in FTN messages (netmail and echomail) along with each control keyword's:

    1. current status (e.g. "standard", "non-standard", "deprecated")
    2. description of known use, if available
    3. official/detailed document reference (e.g. link to FTS document)
    4. examples
    5. software compatibilities or incompatbilities, if known

    w00t! Living document!

    The challenge I am seeing so far, is "it depends upon whose tosser you use", and what does your uplink use...

    Example (have not shared with the author yet), but, I realized the tosser I am using is putting ^ATZUTC: -0200 is being stored using JAMSFLD_FTSKLUDGE instead
    of JAMSFLD_TZUTCINFO as I would assume it should.

    I especially like #5 - I hate the colors wikipedia uses, but, having the feature charts are very useful.

    Ozz

    --
    .. Ozz Nixon
    ... Author ExchangeBBS (suite)
    .... Since 1983 BBS Developer

    --- FMail-W32 2.0.1.4
    * Origin: ExchangeBBS WHQ (1:275/362.0)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ozz Nixon on Fri Mar 22 13:59:18 2019

    On 2019 Mar 22 11:12:04, you wrote to Rob Swindell:

    Example (have not shared with the author yet), but, I realized the tosser
    I
    am using is putting ^ATZUTC: -0200 is being stored using JAMSFLD_FTSKLUDGE instead of JAMSFLD_TZUTCINFO as I would assume it should.

    this may be because that JAM field is not fully supported... i made some changes to the MKSMG library to correct some of these but had to revert those changes as too many other JAM packages broke when using them... that was maybe 20 years ago... FTSCKLUDGE is probably the safest...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... He who hesitates is probably right.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ozz Nixon@1:275/362 to Fred Riccio on Fri Mar 22 13:19:08 2019
    On 2019-03-22 18:09:28 +0000, Fred Riccio -> Rob Swindell said:

    ----- kludge.lst begins -----
    TID FIDO_UTL Msg#1
    MSGID FIDO_UTL Msg#1
    TZUTC FIDO_UTL Msg#2
    CHRS FIDO_UTL Msg#2
    CODEPAGE FIDO_UTL Msg#2
    REPLY FIDO_UTL Msg#3
    PID FIDO_UTL Msg#14
    CHARSET FIDO_UTL Msg#17
    RFC-X-No-Archive FN_SYSOP Msg#13
    FN_SYSOP Msg#70
    RealName FIDO_SYS Msg#226
    Email FIDO_SYS Msg#226
    ICQ FIDO_SYS Msg#226
    NOTE FIDO_SYS Msg#535
    FWDORIG 1 FIDO_SYS Msg#788
    FWDMSGID 1 FIDO_SYS Msg#788
    E-î佫 BINKD Msg#32
    REPLYTO BINKD Msg#774
    REPLYADDR BINKD Msg#774
    INTL 3 BINKD Msg#863
    REPLYTO 3 BINKD Msg#863
    Voice FTSC_PUB Msg#1223
    COLS FTSC_PUB Msg#1999
    TAG Z1Elect Msg#249
    RESCANNED 1 NECHAT Msg#1
    RFC-References NECHAT Msg#39
    RFC-Path NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-Sender NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-Message-ID NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-NNTP-Posting-Hos NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-X-Trace NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-X-Complaints-To NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-NNTP-Posting-Dat NECHAT Msg#144
    RFC-X-Newsreader NECHAT Msg#144
    SPTH NECHAT Msg#270
    RFC-In-Reply-To NECHAT Msg#463
    GID FNLADMIN Msg#1
    REPLYTO 1 NH_4SALE Msg#1
    Path NH_4SALE Msg#517
    From NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Subject NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Lines NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-Priority NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-MSMail-Priority NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-Newsreader NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-MimeOLE NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Message-ID NH_4SALE Msg#517
    NNTP-Posting-Host NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-Complaints-To NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-Trace NH_4SALE Msg#517
    NNTP-Posting-Date NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Organization NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Date NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Xref NH_4SALE Msg#517
    X-Cache NH_4SALE Msg#517
    Mime-Version NH_4SALE Msg#518
    Content-Type NH_4SALE Msg#518
    Content-Transfer-Enc NH_4SALE Msg#518
    X-WebTV-Signature NH_4SALE Msg#518
    Content-Disposition NH_4SALE Msg#518
    Via SLMAIL v5.1 (#S IREX Msg#254
    X-No-Archive IREX Msg#282
    GIF IREX Msg#351
    [la2.c4 IREX Msg#359
    [location IREX Msg#359
    MOOD IREX Msg#1123
    Sender NH_GENRL Msg#294
    References NH_GENRL Msg#294
    REPLYTO 2 BINKLEY Msg#54
    RFC BINKLEY Msg#54
    GATEWAY BINKLEY Msg#54
    RFC-From BINKLEY Msg#172
    RFC-Organization BINKLEY Msg#172
    GMD ARGUS Msg#796
    REPLYADDR 2 ARGUS Msg#876
    book ARGUS Msg#1265
    Posted ARGUS Msg#1958
    RFC-Mime-Version ARGUS Msg#1972
    RFC-Content-Type ARGUS Msg#1972
    Call ARGUS Msg#1996
    Location ARGUS Msg#1996
    FWDDEST 1 TUB Msg#558
    GATE TUB Msg#630
    GATE-MSGID TUB Msg#630
    GATE-REPLY TUB Msg#630
    ----- kludge.lst ends -----

    AREA
    SEEN-BY

    :-)

    --
    .. Ozz Nixon
    ... Author ExchangeBBS (suite)
    .... Since 1983 BBS Developer

    --- FMail-W32 2.0.1.4
    * Origin: ExchangeBBS WHQ (1:275/362.0)
  • From Rob Swindell to Ozz Nixon on Fri Mar 22 13:53:53 2019
    Re: Re: Desired FTSC document: seen/known kludges
    By: Ozz Nixon to Fred Riccio on Fri Mar 22 2019 01:19 pm

    AREA
    SEEN-BY

    Those are technically not control lines. Control lines begin a Ctrl-A (ASCII 1) character and must be either at offset 0 of the message body or immediately following a carriage-return (ASCII 13) or line-feed (ASCII 10).

    But as an honorable member of the FTSC working group, you already knew that, right? <ahem>
  • From Rob Swindell to Fred Riccio on Fri Mar 22 14:56:12 2019
    Re: Desired FTSC document: seen/known kludges
    By: Fred Riccio to Rob Swindell on Fri Mar 22 2019 01:09 pm

    Here is a start...

    Also seen (here):

    "AMID: 3DC3FADD"
    "Bytes: 2595"
    "DATETIME: 1:153/7001.0@fidonet 2017-01-30 15:05:43 +0000"
    "Date: 02 Jan 2017 03:14:17 GMT"
    "FWDTO All"
    "Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAHlBMVEUAAACooKFZVVbCwsIB" "NickName: Extigy"
    "ORIG-IP: 127.0.0.1"
    "Posted: 17 May 13 15:50:02"
    "REGEED: 1.02"
    "RFC-3339: 2019-03-09 17:21:16.682105374+00:00"
    "RFC-Cancel-Lock: sha1:++Yxy4POnE5sqBZ2RATtMDc0jPk="
    (many many more "RFC-*")
    "SOT:"
    "SPLIT: 10 Dec 03 16:19:59 @2320/105 36 01/02 +++++++++++"
    "SPOOK: SEND GUNS TO LOCATION 63"
    "TAGID: Tag-O-Matic V.13F Reg'd 5a5"
    "USERNOTE: Sysop"
    "UUID: 179c6f76-ffe1-4e2f-85b6-e01b72907ae0"
    "VIA: ALLFIX v4.16" (note the colon)
    "Voice: +7-905-384-4027"
    "XID: The Editor! v1.31"
    (many "X-*")
    "Xref: news.usenetmonster.com tor.news.stats:61168"
  • From Ozz Nixon@1:275/362 to Rob Swindell on Fri Mar 22 21:18:32 2019
    On 2019-03-22 20:53:53 +0000, Rob Swindell -> Ozz Nixon said:

    Re: Re: Desired FTSC document: seen/known kludges
    By: Ozz Nixon to Fred Riccio on Fri Mar 22 2019 01:19 pm

    > AREA
    > SEEN-BY

    Those are technically not control lines. Control lines begin a Ctrl-A (ASCII
    1)
    character and must be either at offset 0 of the message body or immediately following a carriage-return (ASCII 13) or line-feed (ASCII 10).

    But as an honorable member of the FTSC working group, you already knew that, right? <ahem>

    Hahaha... Honorable... f*ck. Yer right, Oddly, I have some flagged as JAM-FTSKLUDGE in a couple echos. (Not sure which tosser flagged them with ^A...
    skimming through FMail source, it's not FMail).

    You system passed JAM-FTSKLUDGE: COLS: 80 along the way... didn't see COLS
    listed yet. Oh. Was in Fred's list though for this echo. On the subject of COLS, one document I read says 72 chars, another 76 chars, as "right edge"... is there a current ruling? (I run Dual 27" Wide Screens - so I could go to something like 4000 in a readable font). ;-/

    Hmmm, I guess I could make my editor put all of those Kludge lines in... then we could make them a standard ;-) [3kb header for avg 2kb body]...

    Ozz

    Back to nntp testing...

    --- FMail-W32 2.0.1.4
    * Origin: Modern Pascal, LLC. (1:275/362.0)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Rob Swindell on Sat Mar 23 11:33:32 2019

    On 2019 Mar 22 14:56:12, you wrote to Fred Riccio:

    "SOT:"

    there's also "EOT:" that goes with this... they were used to indicate the "Start of Text" and "End of Text" of the message body in an effort to separate the control lines from the message body... the individual that introduced these
    didn't like having to process the message body to find the control lines... apparently they were not used to "stream processing" and separating data into different areas as the "stream" flowed by... instead they wanted things to be more like email/news where the header and control lines were distinctly separate from the message content...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... "Even the best of friends cannot attend each other's funeral." ─ Albran
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ozz Nixon on Sat Mar 23 11:41:12 2019

    On 2019 Mar 22 21:18:32, you wrote to Rob Swindell:

    You system passed JAM-FTSKLUDGE: COLS: 80 along the way... didn't see
    COLS
    listed yet. Oh. Was in Fred's list though for this echo. On the subject of COLS, one document I read says 72 chars, another 76 chars, as "right edge"... is there a current ruling? (I run Dual 27" Wide Screens - so I could go to something like 4000 in a readable font). ;-/

    there is no ruling and developers years ago realized that terminals were getting wider... they worked on reflowing quotes so that they fit the local terminal viewing the post and did not reflect the originating terminal's size... this is where quoting was also altered so that one added more ">" to the quoted lines instead of adding more and more initials...

    eg: ON>>>>
    instead of
    ON> GW> ml> ON>

    there are also methods used by some editors to indicate that a section is not to be reflowed... tables and charts... those placed a ""hard"" CR at the end of
    the table/chart lines instead of only at the end of the paragraph... this is why you see what is known as "chainsaw" quotes or posts at times...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Practice mirth control. Use a conundrum!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ozz Nixon@1:275/362 to Ozz Nixon on Thu Mar 28 12:54:01 2019
    Ozz Nixon -> Rob Swindell <ozznixon@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 2019-03-21 20:45:46 +0000, Rob Swindell -> All said:

    I would like to see the FTSC put out a living (regularly-updated) document >> which lists all the observed "control lines" (a.k.a. "kludge lines") types in
    FTN messages (netmail and echomail) along with each control keyword's:

    1. current status (e.g. "standard", "non-standard", "deprecated")
    2. description of known use, if available
    3. official/detailed document reference (e.g. link to FTS document)
    4. examples
    5. software compatibilities or incompatbilities, if known

    w00t! Living document!


    How can we get this started??


    --
    ΓÇö whoΓÇÖs yer daddy?!

    --- FMail-W32 2.0.1.4
    * Origin: (1:275/362.0)