• Russia and Ukraine

    From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon May 23 01:06:12 2022
    alexander koryagin wrote to Alan Ianson <=-

    The main task of the invasion -- to stop Donbass shelling

    The main objective according to Putin was the denazification of Ukraine. Russia fired missiles all over Ukraine and then started their invasion sending troops to take over the city and install a puppet governemnt.

    Of course Russia failed and has since changed course looking to gain ground in the Donbass region.

    Of course there are no nazi's in Ukraine. That was all just propaganda for the citizens of Russia to support with the invasion, or "special military operation" as some like to call it.

    Russian troops are not able to do even now, for a while.

    Of course not. There is nothing in Ukraine for Russia.

    As for a puppet government -- I can easily say that the present
    Ukrainian government is a puppet government of the EU, for instance,
    or the US.

    You can say anything at all, that doesn't make it true.

    How do we define which government is a puppet one? If a country wants
    to keep strong relations with another strong country it becomes a
    puppet?

    A puppet has nothing to do with relations with another country.

    The people of Ukraine elected Zelensky. That was their choice. Did the people of Russia elect Putin? I don't think so.

    Russians in Ukraine will say themselves who are they want to be free
    of.

    There is a fairly basic flaw in your statement. Do you see it?

    When they will be free of nationalists threats. But I am afraid
    Kiev will be dissatisfied and have a pity for itself that it didn't
    follow Minsk agreements.

    The real threat in the east of Ukraine is Russian forces who actually invaded Ukraine some years ago.

    ak>> The crippling sanctions would do the same as it now, but tens of
    ak>> thousands of Ukrainians were still alive.

    You are conflating sanctions and civilian lives. Those Ukrainians would still be alive if Russia had not invaded Ukraine and destryed their homes, families and lives.

    You look into a distorting mirror of news. For instance, when there is Russia takes thousands of prisoners in Ukraine you believe the Kiev
    news that they are evacuated into Russia. ;=)

    I do believe that is so. I don't know how many or where they are now but I hope those people can all return to their homeland as they see fit and are not held in Russia.

    It is not a distortion. There are people returning now and telling their story.

    I said to you that such an invasion cannot be without a very serious reason. You prefer don't see it, and it your mistake.

    I see the lack of reason.

    ak>> You are crazy if you compare Hitler and Putin intentions towards
    ak>> Ukrainians. ;)

    Really. Do you know what has happened in Mariupol, Kharkiv and many other places? The Donbass region is more or less destroyed now. That is not Ukraine's fault, Ukraine didn't do that.

    Russia invaded Ukraine with a large military force and has been destroying civilian infrastructure, raping, looting, deporting and killing ever since.

    After American carnages around the world, where it killed millions of people, Russia in Ukraine is just an innocent girl. ;-) Look in the
    right mirror in short.

    Russia is not an innocent girl. No smoke, no mirrors.

    ak>> Nobody would be killed if Zelensky chose a diplomatic way of
    ak>> solving the crisis.

    Russia invaded Ukraine and began an attack on Ukraine with missiles/bombs/shells. That still continues today. Nobody would be killed if Russia didn't invade Ukraine.

    I assure you that many idiots are guilty in the current situation, and
    one one them a fucking actor-clown who cannot tell a movie from
    reality.

    You blame Zelensky, a man who was just elected in 2019 but as you told me yourself Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and has been supporting the suparatists in the east since then bankrolling salaries to local officials and the separatist military forces.


    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    ... I strive for perfection, what I get is reality.

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  • From alexander koryagin@2:5075/128.130 to Alan Ianson on Wed May 25 08:57:45 2022
    Hi, Alan Ianson!
    I read your message from 23.05.2022 11:06

    ak>> The main task of the invasion -- to stop Donbass shelling

    AI> The main objective according to Putin was the denazification of
    AI> Ukraine. Russia fired missiles all over Ukraine and then started
    AI> their invasion sending troops to take over the city and install a
    AI> puppet governemnt.

    AI> Of course Russia failed and has since changed course looking to
    AI> gain ground in the Donbass region.

    Well, indeed, the strategy of the tiger to gobble up a goat in one piece
    has failed. I believe the next one it will be to gnaw its rump. ;)

    AI> Of course there are no nazi's in Ukraine. That was all just
    AI> propaganda for the citizens of Russia to support with the invasion,
    AI> or "special military operation" as some like to call it.

    Uhu, look at the tatu of captured mariupol angels: https://newsofrussia.ru/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/azvostal.jpg

    ak>> Russian troops are not able to do even now, for a while.
    AI> Of course not. There is nothing in Ukraine for Russia.

    There is Russian people in Ukraine. ;-)

    <skipped>
    AI> The people of Ukraine elected Zelensky. That was their choice. Did
    AI> the people of Russia elect Putin? I don't think so.

    Elections in nowadays is a very funny process, even in America. ;-) But suppose a situation when some fucking Nazi approach to you and shout
    "Glory Ukraine" and you must shout "Glory to Heroes" the only way to
    keep yourself safe.

    ak>> Russians in Ukraine will say themselves who are they want to be
    ak>> free of.
    AI> There is a fairly basic flaw in your statement. Do you see it?

    I don't see it. If Arabs in Palestine hate Israel occupants the world
    see it perfectly well. So we see the true position of the Russian people
    in Ukraine soon too, especially in southern and eastern Ukraine.

    ak>> When they will be free of nationalists threats. But I am afraid
    ak>> Kiev will be dissatisfied and have a pity for itself that it
    ak>> didn't follow Minsk agreements.

    AI> The real threat in the east of Ukraine is Russian forces who
    AI> actually invaded Ukraine some years ago.

    As you see it from your American divan. ;-)

    ak>>> The crippling sanctions would do the same as it now, but tens of
    ak>>> thousands of Ukrainians were still alive.

    AI> You are conflating sanctions and civilian lives. Those Ukrainians
    AI> would still be alive if Russia had not invaded Ukraine and destryed
    AI> their homes, families and lives.

    But it is not a Russia aim to "destroy homes, families and lives". There
    is no logic and any sense in that. Ukraine had all means to solve the
    problems without fighting with Russia. But I repeat that Ukrainian nationalists hated Russia so much that any concessions from them had
    been impossible for 8 years. And now they are impossible while an
    clown-actor stays as a president, who plays it as in a movie.

    <skipped>
    ak>> I said to you that such an invasion cannot be without a very
    ak>> serious reason. You prefer don't see it, and it your mistake.
    AI> I see the lack of reason.

    Even the non-existent Universe before Big Bang had some events that led
    to the blast. ;)

    ak>>> You are crazy if you compare Hitler and Putin intentions towards
    ak>>> Ukrainians. ;)

    AI> Really. Do you know what has happened in Mariupol, Kharkiv and many
    AI> other places? The Donbass region is more or less destroyed now.
    AI> That is not Ukraine's fault, Ukraine didn't do that.

    What do you think Russian troops would have done to Ukrainian people if
    they allowed Russian troops enter freely? Fighting with Russia was a
    crazy idea for Zelensky and irreconcilable nationalists and a big part
    of the calamity lay on them. Who is guilty more -- people will say it later.

    <skipped>
    ak>> I assure you that many idiots are guilty in the current situation,
    ak>> and one one them a fucking actor-clown who cannot tell a movie
    ak>> from reality.

    AI> You blame Zelensky, a man who was just elected in 2019 but as you
    AI> told me yourself Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and has been
    AI> supporting the suparatists in the east since then bankrolling
    AI> salaries to local officials and the separatist military forces.

    No wonder -- Ukraine had blockaded Donbass completely and Russia was
    forced to pay money to all the people living on the blockaded territory,
    not allowing them to die of hunger etc.

    Bye, Alan!
    Alexander Koryagin
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  • From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to Alexander Koryagin on Wed May 25 08:00:10 2022
    Well, indeed, the strategy of the tiger to gobble up a goat in one piece
    has failed. I believe the next one it will be to gnaw its rump. ;)

    Good idea.. ;)

    Of course there are no nazi's in Ukraine. That was all just
    propaganda for the citizens of Russia to support with the invasion,
    or "special military operation" as some like to call it.

    Uhu, look at the tatu of captured mariupol angels: https://newsofrussia.ru/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/azvostal.jpg

    This is what "News of Russia" publishes? You might want to look elsewhere.

    Sounds a lot like your "provocative woman" story.

    Russian troops are not able to do even now, for a while.
    Of course not. There is nothing in Ukraine for Russia.

    There is Russian people in Ukraine. ;-)

    Those people are Ukrainian.

    The people of Ukraine elected Zelensky. That was their choice. Did
    the people of Russia elect Putin? I don't think so.

    Elections in nowadays is a very funny process, even in America. ;-)

    The people of Ukraine elected Zelensky, did they not?

    But suppose a situation when some fucking Nazi approach to you and shout "Glory Ukraine" and you must shout "Glory to Heroes" the only way to
    keep yourself safe.

    You could simply stay in your own country.

    Russians in Ukraine will say themselves who are they want to be
    free of.

    There is a fairly basic flaw in your statement. Do you see it?

    I don't see it. If Arabs in Palestine hate Israel occupants the world
    see it perfectly well. So we see the true position of the Russian people
    in Ukraine soon too, especially in southern and eastern Ukraine.

    I agree.

    As you see it from your American divan. ;-)

    I also see you from my American divan.

    But it is not a Russia aim to "destroy homes, families and lives". There
    is no logic and any sense in that. Ukraine had all means to solve the problems without fighting with Russia.

    Ukraine never fought with Russia. Never made any threats to fight with Russia. Russia in invaded Ukraine and proceeded to destroy homes, families and lives.

    Even today it continues.

    But I repeat that Ukrainian nationalists hated Russia so much that any
    concessions from them had been impossible for 8 years. And now they are >impossible while an clown-actor stays as a president, who plays it as
    in a movie.

    What concessions do you hope for from Ukraine? You won't be getting any.

    What do you think Russian troops would have done to Ukrainian people if
    they allowed Russian troops enter freely? Fighting with Russia was a
    crazy idea for Zelensky and irreconcilable nationalists and a big part
    of the calamity lay on them. Who is guilty more -- people will say it later.

    They would have killed Zelensky (they tried serveral times) and installed a puppet government. It would have gone beyond that to what point I am not sure.

    Why should the Ukrainian people allow Russian troops enter freely? Would Russia allow Ukrainian troops to enter freely?

    You blame Zelensky, a man who was just elected in 2019 but as you
    told me yourself Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and has been
    supporting the suparatists in the east since then bankrolling
    salaries to local officials and the separatist military forces.

    No wonder -- Ukraine had blockaded Donbass completely and Russia was
    forced to pay money to all the people living on the blockaded territory,
    not allowing them to die of hunger etc.

    Do you actually believe these things you say? ;)

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  • From alexander koryagin@2:5075/128.130 to Alan Ianson on Thu May 26 16:34:50 2022
    Hi, Alan Ianson!
    I read your message from 25.05.2022 18:00


    ak>> But I repeat that Ukrainian nationalists hated Russia so much that
    ak>> any concessions from them had been impossible for 8 years. And now
    ak>> they are impossible while an clown-actor stays as a president, who
    ak>> plays it as in a movie.

    AI> What concessions do you hope for from Ukraine? You won't be getting
    AI> any.

    So it is useless to talk about them. ;-) And, probably, already too late.

    ak>> What do you think Russian troops would have done to Ukrainian
    ak>> people if they allowed Russian troops enter freely? Fighting with
    ak>> Russia was a crazy idea for Zelensky and irreconcilable
    ak>> nationalists and a big part of the calamity lay on them. Who is
    ak>> guilty more -- people will say it later.

    AI> They would have killed Zelensky (they tried serveral times) and
    AI> installed a puppet government. It would have gone beyond that to
    AI> what point I am not sure.

    You (and many people in the West) call a puppet government any
    government friendly to Russia. ;-) It is wrong of course. And in Russia
    many also stick such labels to the US satellites.

    AI> Why should the Ukrainian people allow Russian troops enter freely?
    AI> Would Russia allow Ukrainian troops to enter freely?

    Ukrainian President could chose two way to treat Russia - diplomacy or a
    war. As an idiot he chose a war and a great damage to his country.
    Ukraine has already lost much more than it would lose in the peaceful
    variant of resistance. Well, how to explain it to you -- suppose you
    meet a bad strong company who demands money from you. And you should
    weigh carefully your broken bones and medical bills against some money
    you give away. ;=))

    AI>>> You blame Zelensky, a man who was just elected in 2019 but as you
    AI>>> told me yourself Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and has been
    AI>>> supporting the suparatists in the east since then bankrolling
    AI>>> salaries to local officials and the separatist military forces.

    ak>> No wonder -- Ukraine had blockaded Donbass completely and Russia
    ak>> was forced to pay money to all the people living on the blockaded
    ak>> territory, not allowing them to die of hunger etc.

    AI> Do you actually believe these things you say? ;)

    What is wrong? The fact that Ukraine has blockaded Donbass for 8 years?

    Bye, Alan!
    Alexander Koryagin
    fido.debate,local.cc.ak 2022
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  • From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu May 26 09:37:34 2022
    You (and many people in the West) call a puppet government any
    government friendly to Russia. ;-) It is wrong of course. And in Russia
    many also stick such labels to the US satellites.

    A puppet government is not hard to describe. It is a government put in place of an existing government by force. That is what Russia has tried to do in Ukraine. They have done that on a smaller scale in some regions of Ukraine.

    Why should the Ukrainian people allow Russian troops enter freely?
    Would Russia allow Ukrainian troops to enter freely?

    Ukrainian President could chose two way to treat Russia - diplomacy or a
    war. As an idiot he chose a war and a great damage to his country.

    That was not a choice he made. That was a choice Russia made.

    Ukraine has already lost much more than it would lose in the peaceful
    variant of resistance.

    What is this peaceful variant of resistance you speak of?

    Well, how to explain it to you -- suppose you
    meet a bad strong company who demands money from you. And you should
    weigh carefully your broken bones and medical bills against some money
    you give away. ;=))

    I see. Ukraine should have given Russia it's money so Russia wouldn't break their bones?

    Do you actually believe these things you say? ;)

    What is wrong? The fact that Ukraine has blockaded Donbass for 8 years?

    The Donbass is Ukrainian territory. How do you imagine that Ukraine blockaded it?

    I can believe that Russian has blockaded Ukrainian exports of wheat and other goods. Going so far as to steal Ukrainian wheat.

    https://youtu.be/ZC0tSAJ5WSY

    This is what you are defending and supporting.

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  • From alexander koryagin@2:5075/128.130 to Alan Ianson on Fri May 27 09:05:22 2022
    Hi, Alan Ianson!
    I read your message from 26.05.2022 19:37

    ak>> You (and many people in the West) call a puppet government any
    ak>> government friendly to Russia. ;-) It is wrong of course. And in
    ak>> Russia many also stick such labels to the US satellites.

    AI> A puppet government is not hard to describe. It is a government put
    AI> in place of an existing government by force. That is what Russia
    AI> has tried to do in Ukraine. They have done that on a smaller scale
    AI> in some regions of Ukraine.

    Well, to say the truth, it is a common worldwide practice. The US has
    done it all the the time when it wants to have a friendly government in
    some country. It was in Haiti, Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua etc, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, Libya. Military juntas installed by the US is a common thing in the South America, remember Chile for instance. So it is
    not the US who has a moral right to teach others in this respect.

    AI>>> Why should the Ukrainian people allow Russian troops enter
    AI>>> freely? Would Russia allow Ukrainian troops to enter freely?
    ak>> Ukrainian President could chose two way to treat Russia -
    ak>> diplomacy or a war. As an idiot he chose a war and a great damage
    ak>> to his country.
    AI> That was not a choice he made. That was a choice Russia made.
    ak>> Ukraine has already lost much more than it would lose in the
    ak>> peaceful variant of resistance.

    AI> What is this peaceful variant of resistance you speak of?

    Well it easy -- western economic sanctions are a 20 times more effective weapon than the resistance of the Ukrainian good-for-nothing troops dug
    down in civil areas and towns -- the main cause of numeral deaths of
    civilians in Ukraine. Also these bastards prohibit civilians to leave
    the towns under an attack. It is a well known fact. Russian people in
    such towns are used as a living shield of the Ukrainian army.

    ak>> Well, how to explain it to you -- suppose you meet a bad strong
    ak>> company who demands money from you. And you should weigh carefully
    ak>> your broken bones and medical bills against some money you give
    ak>> away. ;=))

    AI> I see. Ukraine should have given Russia it's money so Russia
    AI> wouldn't break their bones?

    Not money, but concessions -- it just should to stop its nationalistic
    policy towards the Russian-speaking population in Ukraine, to give an autonomy to Russian-speaking regions. It was realistic.

    AI>>> Do you actually believe these things you say? ;)
    ak>> What is wrong? The fact that Ukraine has blockaded Donbass for 8
    ak>> years?
    AI> The Donbass is Ukrainian territory. How do you imagine that Ukraine
    AI> blockaded it?

    By tanks and military of course.

    AI> I can believe that Russian has blockaded Ukrainian exports of wheat
    AI> and other goods. Going so far as to steal Ukrainian wheat.
    AI> https://youtu.be/ZC0tSAJ5WSY
    AI> This is what you are defending and supporting.

    Well, the main task for the West now is to carry out the Ukrainian grain
    out of the country. The declared aim is to feed the world population.
    Russia is also participate in the process -- it doesn't confiscate the
    grain for itself. There are many grain in Ukraine on the Russian held territory and it is logically to say that only Russian ships can deliver
    it out.

    Bye, Alan!
    Alexander Koryagin
    fido.debate,local.cc.ak 2022
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  • From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri May 27 23:53:46 2022
    A puppet government is not hard to describe. It is a government put
    in place of an existing government by force. That is what Russia
    has tried to do in Ukraine. They have done that on a smaller scale
    in some regions of Ukraine.

    Well, to say the truth, it is a common worldwide practice. The US has
    done it all the the time when it wants to have a friendly government in
    some country. It was in Haiti, Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua etc, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, Libya. Military juntas installed by the US is a common thing in the South America, remember Chile for instance. So it is
    not the US who has a moral right to teach others in this respect.

    You are deflecting. We are talking about Russian actions in Ukraine and what a puppet government is.

    What is this peaceful variant of resistance you speak of?

    Well it easy -- western economic sanctions are a 20 times more effective weapon than the resistance of the Ukrainian good-for-nothing troops dug
    down in civil areas and towns

    Sanctions are not a weapon. They are a reaction to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. If Russia had not done that there would be no sanctions. The same is true of the sanctions imposed after Russia originally invaded Ukraine some years back although those sanctions were on a much smaller scale.

    -- the main cause of numeral deaths of
    civilians in Ukraine. Also these bastards prohibit civilians to leave
    the towns under an attack. It is a well known fact. Russian people in
    such towns are used as a living shield of the Ukrainian army.

    You've been watching to much Russian state TV, you should stop that. It is not doing you any good.

    Today the Donbass is destroyed, by Russian forces. Not something else.

    I see. Ukraine should have given Russia it's money so Russia
    wouldn't break their bones?

    Not money, but concessions -- it just should to stop its nationalistic
    policy towards the Russian-speaking population in Ukraine, to give an autonomy to Russian-speaking regions. It was realistic.

    So we are back at concessions again? What concessions do you imagine Ukraine should offer to you, so that you don't break their bones?

    The Donbass is Ukrainian territory. How do you imagine that Ukraine
    blockaded it?

    By tanks and military of course.

    Yes, of course. How and why do you imagine that Ukraine blockaded their own territory?

    Well, the main task for the West now is to carry out the Ukrainian grain
    out of the country.

    You are not making any sense. It is not a task of the west to carry anything out of Ukraine. It never was.

    The declared aim is to feed the world population.

    Nothing has been declared. The Russian blockade of Ukraine's exports creates a world food shortage, among other things.

    Russia is also participate in the process --

    Yes, Russia participated in the theft of this grain from Ukraine.

    Russia is the largest producer of grain in the world. If it wanted to help any country it could ship it's grain to them itself.

    That is not what happened. Russia shipped wheat stolen from Ukraine.

    it doesn't confiscate the grain for itself.

    No it doesn't. That grain was stolen from Ukraine.

    There are many grain in Ukraine on the Russian held
    territory and it is logically to say that only Russian ships can deliver
    it out.

    What!? Ukraine will ship their wheat, not Russia.

    Russia has much wheat that they can ship if they so choose.

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  • From alexander koryagin@2:5075/128.130 to Alan Ianson on Mon May 30 10:55:34 2022
    Hi, Alan Ianson!
    I read your message from 28.05.2022 09:53

    AI>>> What is this peaceful variant of resistance you speak of?
    ak>> Well it easy -- western economic sanctions are a 20 times more
    ak>> effective weapon than the resistance of the Ukrainian good-for-
    ak>> nothing troops dug down in civil areas and towns

    AI> Sanctions are not a weapon. They are a reaction to the Russian
    AI> invasion of Ukraine. If Russia had not done that there would be no
    AI> sanctions. The same is true of the sanctions imposed after Russia
    AI> originally invaded Ukraine some years back although those sanctions
    AI> were on a much smaller scale.

    Even a word in mass-media is a weapon. Russia has got under sanctions
    because it lost an information war. And many have believed that Russia
    is guilty in everything, however there are many of those who must share
    the blame, whose policy has been not less reckless than Putin's.

    ak>> -- the main cause of numeral deaths of civilians in Ukraine. Also
    ak>> these bastards prohibit civilians to leave the towns under an
    ak>> attack. It is a well known fact. Russian people in such towns are
    ak>> used as a living shield of the Ukrainian army.

    AI> You've been watching to much Russian state TV, you should stop
    AI> that. It is not doing you any good.

    Just tell me - who resists civilians to leave a Ukrainian town under
    siege? Russian troops?

    <skipped>
    ak>> Not money, but concessions -- it just should to stop its
    ak>> nationalistic policy towards the Russian-speaking population in
    ak>> Ukraine, to give an autonomy to Russian-speaking regions. It was
    ak>> realistic.

    AI> So we are back at concessions again? What concessions do you
    AI> imagine Ukraine should offer to you, so that you don't break their
    AI> bones?

    If a person is an idiot, deaf and hate you -- you can speak to him even
    for 8 years without result. So it was with Ukrainian politicians.

    AI>>> The Donbass is Ukrainian territory. How do you imagine that
    AI>>> Ukraine blockaded it?

    ak>> By tanks and military of course.

    AI> Yes, of course. How and why do you imagine that Ukraine blockaded
    AI> their own territory?

    It blockaded the living people who were against the Kiev 2014 coup. And
    such a reaction was predictable. Yanukovich had been an elected
    President, it meant that more than a half of Ukraine (without Crimea) supported him.

    ak>> Well, the main task for the West now is to carry out the Ukrainian
    ak>> grain out of the country.
    AI> You are not making any sense. It is not a task of the west to carry
    AI> anything out of Ukraine. It never was.
    ak>> The declared aim is to feed the world population.
    AI> Nothing has been declared. The Russian blockade of Ukraine's
    AI> exports creates a world food shortage, among other things.

    It is a poor propaganda that Russian navy doesn't allow Ukrainian or
    other ships to carry grain from Ukraine. There is no sense in that, more
    of that -- all Ukrainian ports are mined by Ukraine itself.

    ak>> Russia is also participate in the process --
    AI> Yes, Russia participated in the theft of this grain from Ukraine.
    AI> Russia is the largest producer of grain in the world. If it wanted
    AI> to help any country it could ship it's grain to them itself.

    Yes, it can provide the world with its own grain. I think the scale of
    so called theft should be checked -- after Russia had built the Crimean
    bridge and the highway from Kerch to Sevastopol it can be logical to
    carry the grain from Russia's Kuban region to Sevastopol port by land.
    So the grain shown in that CNN report could be Russian.
    <skipped>


    Bye, Alan!
    Alexander Koryagin
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  • From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to Alexander Koryagin on Tue May 31 05:43:34 2022
    Even a word in mass-media is a weapon. Russia has got under sanctions
    because it lost an information war. And many have believed that Russia
    is guilty in everything, however there are many of those who must share
    the blame, whose policy has been not less reckless than Putin's.

    The media is not a weapon. In Russia you don't even have anything that could be called a media anymore. You only have what state media gives you. More propaganda. At some point the Russian people will know the truth.

    Just tell me - who resists civilians to leave a Ukrainian town under
    siege? Russian troops?

    Yes, that has been happening, in Mariupol for example as well as other places.

    So we are back at concessions again? What concessions do you
    imagine Ukraine should offer to you, so that you don't break their
    bones?

    If a person is an idiot, deaf and hate you -- you can speak to him even
    for 8 years without result. So it was with Ukrainian politicians.

    You are much hated now that you have invaded Ukraine and gone on a killing spree but that was not the case before the war. Ukrainian politicians put policies in place for the Ukrainian people. This is no surprise.

    It blockaded the living people who were against the Kiev 2014 coup. And
    such a reaction was predictable. Yanukovich had been an elected
    President, it meant that more than a half of Ukraine (without Crimea) supported him.

    Ukraine did not blockade anything in Ukraine.

    Nothing has been declared. The Russian blockade of Ukraine's
    exports creates a world food shortage, among other things.

    It is a poor propaganda that Russian navy doesn't allow Ukrainian or
    other ships to carry grain from Ukraine. There is no sense in that, more
    of that -- all Ukrainian ports are mined by Ukraine itself.

    You are right, it doesn't make sense but that is what Russia is doing.

    Yes, Russia participated in the theft of this grain from Ukraine.
    Russia is the largest producer of grain in the world. If it wanted
    to help any country it could ship it's grain to them itself.

    Yes, it can provide the world with its own grain. I think the scale of
    so called theft should be checked

    There were two ships being filled with grain so check that. It only becomes worse over time. Not only grain but farm equipment from Melitopol in March.

    Russians steal vast amounts of Ukrainian grain and equipment, threatening this year's harvest.

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/05/europe/russia-ukraine-grain-theft-cmd-intl/index .html

    or..

    https://tinyurl.com/4fdf479p

    after Russia had built the Crimean
    bridge and the highway from Kerch to Sevastopol it can be logical to
    carry the grain from Russia's Kuban region to Sevastopol port by land.
    So the grain shown in that CNN report could be Russian.

    Russia is shipping it's wheat from Ukraine? Give me a break.

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  • From alexander koryagin@2:5075/128.130 to Alan Ianson on Wed Jun 1 08:56:53 2022
    Hi, Alan Ianson!
    I read your message from 31.05.2022 15:43

    ak>> Just tell me - who resists civilians to leave a Ukrainian town
    ak>> under siege? Russian troops?
    AI> Yes, that has been happening, in Mariupol for example as well as
    AI> other places.

    Tell me (and to all who read it) what is the sense for Russian troops to
    block the Russian civilians to leave the city? You make make me laugh.
    ROFL to be more exact.

    AI>>> So we are back at concessions again? What concessions do you
    AI>>> imagine Ukraine should offer to you, so that you don't break
    AI>>> their bones?
    ak>> If a person is an idiot, deaf and hate you -- you can speak to him
    ak>> even for 8 years without result. So it was with Ukrainian
    ak>> politicians.

    AI> You are much hated now that you have invaded Ukraine and gone on a
    AI> killing spree but that was not the case before the war. Ukrainian
    AI> politicians put policies in place for the Ukrainian people. This is
    AI> no surprise.

    The Ukrainian politicians are nationalists and they
    have discriminated a big part of the Ukrainian population. They want to
    make Ukrainians from Russians, by force. This item is enough to
    hate them for Russian people.

    ak>> It blockaded the living people who were against the Kiev 2014
    ak>> coup. And such a reaction was predictable. Yanukovich had been an
    ak>> elected President, it meant that more than a half of Ukraine
    ak>> (without Crimea) supported him.

    AI> Ukraine did not blockade anything in Ukraine.

    No comment, for they are useless.

    AI> <skipped>
    AI> Russians steal vast amounts of Ukrainian grain and equipment,
    AI> threatening this year's harvest.

    AI> https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/05/europe/russia-ukraine-grain-theft-cmd-intl/index
    AI> . html or..
    AI> https://tinyurl.com/4fdf479p

    You are wrong -- as "liberators of Russian population" in
    eastern and southern Ukraine Russia cannot confiscate the harvest.
    The Local population now officially sell it and gets money. So the
    following URL news is not a fake.

    https://ria.ru/20220530/zerno-1791654673.html

    It is very likely it is the source of the grain from the CNN report.
    People need money and naturally they sell their goods. Why not? You
    compare Russian invasion with the invasion of Germany in 1941 and it is
    your main mistake.

    Bye, Alan!
    Alexander Koryagin
    fido.debate,local.cc.ak 2022
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  • From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to Alexander Koryagin on Wed Jun 1 01:05:32 2022
    Tell me (and to all who read it) what is the sense for Russian troops to block the Russian civilians to leave the city? You make make me laugh.
    ROFL to be more exact.

    It also makes me ROTFL, watching Russia spin these tales.

    The Ukrainian politicians are nationalists and they

    What do you think Russian politicians are, or ambassadors?

    I just read the Russian ambassador to the UK spin some wild tales. It was laughable. In spite of those fabrications we are not going to invade Russia.

    have discriminated a big part of the Ukrainian population. They want to
    make Ukrainians from Russians, by force. This item is enough to
    hate them for Russian people.

    That is simply untrue.

    Russians steal vast amounts of Ukrainian grain and equipment,
    threatening this year's harvest.

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/05/europe/russia-ukraine-grain-theft-cmd-intl/inde >> . html or..

    https://tinyurl.com/4fdf479p

    You are wrong -- as "liberators of Russian population" in

    First you were liberating Ukraine and now you are "liberators of Russian population". Make up your mind.

    eastern and southern Ukraine Russia cannot confiscate the harvest.

    No, it can't. It was stolen.

    The Local population now officially sell it and gets money. So the
    following URL news is not a fake.

    It is fake right on it's face.

    https://ria.ru/20220530/zerno-1791654673.html

    It is very likely it is the source of the grain from the CNN report.

    No, the grain from the CNN report was stolen.

    People need money and naturally they sell their goods. Why not?

    Sure the people of Ukraine have been selling their wheat for a long time.

    You compare Russian invasion with the invasion of Germany in 1941 and it is your main mistake.

    No mistake. Ask yourself "why would Ukrainians sell their wheat to Russians" when they have already many customers waiting. They wouldn't do that.

    Why would Russia buy wheat from Ukraine when they have much already, not blockaded in any way?

    The Russian invasion of Ukraine is much worse than the invasion of Russia by Germany even after a short time.

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  • From alexander koryagin@2:5075/128.130 to Alan Ianson on Tue Jun 7 09:07:38 2022
    Hi, Alan Ianson!
    I read your message from 01.06.2022 11:05

    AI> <skipped>
    ak>> You are wrong -- as "liberators of Russian population" in

    AI> First you were liberating Ukraine and now you are "liberators of
    AI> Russian population". Make up your mind.

    Western part of Ukraine is a nationalist hive and has always been, even
    in the USSR. So the most sober policy is to free the south and east of
    Ukraine where population is still pro-Russian, even after the havoc of
    the war.

    AI> <skipped>
    ak>> You compare Russian invasion with the invasion of Germany in 1941
    ak>> and it is your main mistake.

    AI> No mistake. Ask yourself "why would Ukrainians sell their wheat to
    AI> Russians" when they have already many customers waiting. They
    AI> wouldn't do that.

    AI> Why would Russia buy wheat from Ukraine when they have much
    AI> already, not blockaded in any way?

    It's easy - people (peasants for instance) should live -- they sell
    their goods to have money and buy other goods. The idea that they should
    lie on ground and die is wrong. There is no a single motive for Russia
    to stole wheat. Why? Russia can buy it.

    Bye, Alan!
    Alexander Koryagin
    fido.debate,local.cc.ak 2022
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  • From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to alexander koryagin on Tue Jun 7 00:45:16 2022
    Western part of Ukraine is a nationalist hive and has always been, even
    in the USSR.

    The western part of Ukraine is no more nationalistic than Russia.

    So the most sober policy is to free the south and east of Ukraine where population is still pro-Russian, even after the havoc of the war.

    The most sober policy is to let Ukraine be what it is, and become what it wants to become.

    It's easy - people (peasants for instance) should live -- they sell
    their goods to have money and buy other goods.

    Of course, but we are not talking about peasants here. Ukraine has been selling it's wheat for generations. What we saw (grain be loaded onto Russian ships) was the theft of that grain by Russia.

    The idea that they should lie on ground and die is wrong.

    I agree, and that is why Ukraine has not laid down on the ground and died.

    There is no a single motive for Russia to stole wheat.

    No motive? :)

    Why? Russia can buy it.

    Is Russia a wheat merchant? No. Russia is full of their own wheat. They did not buy wheat from peasants.

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