• Selling Body Parts

    From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to All on Sun Nov 2 02:50:21 2014
    Hello Everybody,

    What is immoral about saving lives?

    Pro-life Republicans claim to be pro-life.
    Pro-life Democrats also claim to be pro-life.
    Pro-life Independents even claim to be pro-life.

    But everybody, regardless of party affiliation
    or political ideology, says that selling body parts
    is immoral, and that doing so should be illegal.

    Christians, both Catholic and non-Catholic, say
    it is immoral and should be illegal.
    Muslims, regardless of sect, say it is immoral
    and should be illegal.
    Jews, of every persuasion, say it is immoral
    and should be illegal.
    Atheists and agnostics say it is immoral and
    should be illegal.
    Buddhists, Hindus, Jainists, and Taoists say
    it is immoral and should be illegal.
    Just about everybody in the whole wide world
    says it is immoral and should be illegal.

    But nobody seems to be able to figure out why.

    I looked in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
    Nothing in there forbidding the selling of body parts.

    I looked at every encyclical the pope has written
    since Peter sat upon the chair. Nothing in there
    forbidding the selling of body parts.

    I read the entire Bible from cover to cover,
    including the Latin Vulgate. Nothing in there
    forbidding the selling of body parts.

    Martin Luther got mad at the pope some centuries
    ago. Why? He thought the church was selling
    indulgences. The pope denied it, of course,
    saying it was a bunch of nonsense. The church
    would never do such a thing. No profit in it.
    But body parts, well, that was very much the
    church's business. Those relics do not come
    cheap ...

    Anyway, that is a bit off the subject.
    Now back to reality -

    I read a classified ad in the newspaper
    the other day that literally blew my mind -

    "Kidney, runs good, $30,000 or best offer."

    This was a woman from St. Petersburg, Florida.
    Said her name was Ruth. Apparently, all she
    wanted was some money, and selling a kidney
    seemed to her an easy way to make some quick
    cash.

    I will not reveal her name (oops!) or telephone
    number in this forum, although it can be found
    in the classified ad. I am not even going to
    mention the name of the newspaper although it
    would be easy enough for anybody to find out.

    Not having anything else to do, and with no LSU
    or Saints football game being played this weekend,
    I decided to give her a call. It was a short
    conversation. She told me she got a few serious
    calls, but then the newspaper refused to run her
    ad again, warning her that she might be arrested.

    What gets me is why anybody would be willing to
    sell a perfectly good kidney for a mere $30,000?
    But then I remembered that people in Pakistan
    and other parts of the world do this all the time,
    selling a kidney for much less.

    A few years ago a human kidney was offered on the
    auction site eBay. Bidding reached nearly six
    million dollars (USD) before eBay pulled the plug
    and put an end to that type of thing.

    But what is so wrong about selling body parts?
    Especially if those body parts are in perfectly
    good working condition? People are allowed to
    donate body parts if they are dead. Notice I
    said donate, not sell. As it is, people have
    to wait until they are dead before they can
    donate their own body parts. Can't sell body
    parts, even after you're dead. Why? Because
    somebody else wants to make a profit on your
    demise.

    Why not sell body parts while still alive?
    Whether it is your own body parts or somebody
    else's, what difference does it make? At least
    people could get compensated for their own body
    parts when sold to those who need them, or at
    least to those who have the cash.

    We have been taught to believe that selling
    body parts is immoral, and should be illegal.
    But what the heck is immoral about saving
    lives? Please somebody explain that to me.

    Most Americans believe it is immoral to buy
    and sell body parts of people. I would venture
    to say that most Americans believe it is truly
    disgusting to buy and sell body parts of people.
    But nobody has ever been able to give me a good
    reason, or explanation, as to why they believe
    what they do.

    Americans *need* other people's body parts.
    Americans know this, and accept this, as a given.
    Transplants are common, and available, for even
    those who are homeless. Rich and poor alike
    receive body parts, and millions have agreed to
    become donors themselves.

    Sixty thousand Americans pray for kidneys.
    Even those who are avowed atheists. Thousands
    upon thousands of other Americans pray for other
    body parts. How much would those who could afford
    to pay for body parts be willing to pay? How much
    should they pay? Should only the indigent receive
    body parts for free? And what about waiting lists?
    Why should there be waiting lists? If somebody
    has the money, and is willing to pay the price ...

    --Lee

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  • From BOB KLAHN@1:123/140 to LEE LOFASO on Wed Nov 12 20:06:00 2014

    What is immoral about saving lives?

    Pro-life Republicans claim to be pro-life.
    Pro-life Democrats also claim to be pro-life.
    Pro-life Independents even claim to be pro-life.

    But everybody, regardless of party affiliation
    or political ideology, says that selling body parts
    is immoral, and that doing so should be illegal.

    Yep. I am both pro-life and opposed to selling body parts.

    ...

    But nobody seems to be able to figure out why.

    Wrong, I figured it out long ago.

    ...

    Now back to reality -

    Ok, who wrote this and signed Lee's name to it?

    I read a classified ad in the newspaper
    the other day that literally blew my mind -

    "Kidney, runs good, $30,000 or best offer."

    This was a woman from St. Petersburg, Florida.
    Said her name was Ruth. Apparently, all she
    wanted was some money, and selling a kidney
    seemed to her an easy way to make some quick
    cash.

    Ok, one reason that one should be illegal is she is too dumb to
    give informed consent. She should have said, bidding starts at
    $30,000.

    Oh, and that was in 1997.

    Not having anything else to do, and with no LSU
    or Saints football game being played this weekend,
    I decided to give her a call. It was a short
    conversation. She told me she got a few serious
    calls, but then the newspaper refused to run her
    ad again, warning her that she might be arrested.

    You called her in 1997?

    What gets me is why anybody would be willing to
    sell a perfectly good kidney for a mere $30,000?
    But then I remembered that people in Pakistan
    and other parts of the world do this all the time,
    selling a kidney for much less.

    ...

    good working condition? People are allowed to
    donate body parts if they are dead. Notice I
    said donate, not sell. As it is, people have
    to wait until they are dead before they can
    donate their own body parts. Can't sell body

    You can donate a kidney if you are alive, and have two good
    ones.

    Why not sell body parts while still alive?

    Why not sell body parts while still alive, for delivery after
    death?

    ...

    those who are homeless. Rich and poor alike
    receive body parts, and millions have agreed to
    become donors themselves.

    Not quite true. Rich and poor receive body parts, but not alike.
    All too often the rich get what the poor need.

    ...

    body parts for free? And what about waiting lists?
    Why should there be waiting lists? If somebody
    has the money, and is willing to pay the price ...

    If somebody has the money and is willing to pay the price, the
    poor will never get a transplant again.

    And that is the basis for not allowing the sale of body parts.

    Walmart is trying to get into providing health care. The Walmart
    business modely requires cheap suppliers to provide cheap
    prices. That model is why this country has unemployment about
    15% in real numbers.

    Apply that to body parts. To sell in quantity you have to have a
    supply of cheap parts. That means a lot of donors/sellers. With
    enough sellers you will be able to buy a kidney for $1000. To
    maintain that we have to maintain a large number of people in
    poverty in this country.

    It's hard enough to get a congress owned by the rich to do
    anything to help lift people from poverty, with a need for cheap
    body parts there will be that much more incentive to keep a
    large portion of the population poor.

    BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

    ... To beer or not to beer? (C) Shakesbeer )
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  • From Ross Cassell@1:123/456 to BOB KLAHN on Wed Nov 12 21:41:18 2014
    Hello BOB!

    12 Nov 14 20:06, you wrote to LEE LOFASO:

    Yep. I am both pro-life

    and a liberal, call that an oxymoron.



    ==
    Ross
    Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info

    "Know what you believe and why you believe it" - Russ Cassell 1954-2014

    "Lee, leave those kids alone" - Pink Floyd

    ... The avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote! --- GoldED/W32 3.0.1
    * Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to BOB KLAHN on Wed Nov 19 23:50:31 2014
    Hello Bob,

    What is immoral about saving lives?

    Pro-life Republicans claim to be pro-life.
    Pro-life Democrats also claim to be pro-life.
    Pro-life Independents even claim to be pro-life.

    But everybody, regardless of party affiliation
    or political ideology, says that selling body parts
    is immoral, and that doing so should be illegal.

    Yep. I am both pro-life and opposed to selling body parts.

    Yet it is okay to sell locks of hair to companies that
    manufacture wigs. Some folks choose to donate locks of
    hair for cancer patients, which is also considered as
    being an acceptable practice by society. Certainly you
    are not opposed to selling or giving away hair, whether
    it is somebody else's hair or your own?

    But nobody seems to be able to figure out why.

    Wrong, I figured it out long ago.

    If folks can sell or give away hair, why not other body parts?

    Now back to reality -

    Ok, who wrote this and signed Lee's name to it?

    The otherworldlee Lee.

    I read a classified ad in the newspaper
    the other day that literally blew my mind -

    "Kidney, runs good, $30,000 or best offer."

    This was a woman from St. Petersburg, Florida.
    Said her name was Ruth. Apparently, all she
    wanted was some money, and selling a kidney
    seemed to her an easy way to make some quick
    cash.

    Ok, one reason that one should be illegal is she is too dumb to
    give informed consent. She should have said, bidding starts at
    $30,000.

    Oh, and that was in 1997.

    There were so many sites on the web with that same headline
    that I have no idea which is the original or what year it came
    from. The idea for a search on google was from an article
    in a supermarket tabloid I had read years ago about people
    in Pakistan who had sold a kidney for quick cash.

    Not having anything else to do, and with no LSU
    or Saints football game being played this weekend,
    I decided to give her a call. It was a short
    conversation. She told me she got a few serious
    calls, but then the newspaper refused to run her
    ad again, warning her that she might be arrested.

    You called her in 1997?

    The Wayback Machine is a most wonderful device ...

    What gets me is why anybody would be willing to
    sell a perfectly good kidney for a mere $30,000?
    But then I remembered that people in Pakistan
    and other parts of the world do this all the time,
    selling a kidney for much less.

    good working condition? People are allowed to
    donate body parts if they are dead. Notice I
    said donate, not sell. As it is, people have
    to wait until they are dead before they can
    donate their own body parts. Can't sell body

    You can donate a kidney if you are alive, and have two good ones.

    You can donate somebody else's kidney and have two
    good ones. But if you donate one of your own kidneys,
    you'd best hope you have one good one left. :)

    Why not sell body parts while still alive?

    Why not sell body parts while still alive, for delivery after death?

    In general, folks can agree to donate (but not
    sell) body parts while still alive, but still
    have to wait until dead before actually having
    those body parts removed for donation.

    It is legal to donate certain body parts to
    others while all parties are still alive.
    Kidneys are one example. But it is usually
    in cases where all parties know each other,
    such as family members or relatives.

    those who are homeless. Rich and poor alike
    receive body parts, and millions have agreed to
    become donors themselves.

    Not quite true. Rich and poor receive body parts, but not alike.

    How is a recipient going to know if he/she is receiving
    a good body part or a bad body part? Are body parts given
    ratings, such as excellent/good/fair/poor? Did Dick Cheney
    have a choice of which heart he could get before surgeons
    implanted him with a new heart? Or was he just lucky to
    have gotten a good one rather than another clunker?

    All too often the rich get what the poor need.

    Why should the poor receive what the rich need most?
    Most of the poor would never appreciate such a gift,
    continuing the same old life they had lived before -
    smoking and drinking and getting high ...

    body parts for free? And what about waiting lists?
    Why should there be waiting lists? If somebody
    has the money, and is willing to pay the price ...

    If somebody has the money and is willing to pay the price, the
    poor will never get a transplant again.

    So what? The poor will always be with us. The rich can
    at least make a difference, at least while they are still
    here. So might as well keep rich folks around for as long
    as possible.

    And that is the basis for not allowing the sale of body parts.

    By not allowing the sale of body parts, society is placing
    a limit on the number of body parts available. And that means
    more people dying as a result of not enough available body
    parts.

    You see, rich folks will always be able to get body
    parts. Regardless of cost, or legality. And rich folks
    will always get the choicest of body parts, as they can
    easily afford to buy the best for themselves.

    People in third world countries are willing to sell
    a kidney for $1000. That might seem cheap to you, but
    to them that is a fortune. Denying them the right to
    sell their own kidneys (or other body parts) would be
    keeping them in the poorhouse forever. Denying them
    any hope of escaping a lifetime of poverty.

    Walmart is trying to get into providing health care.

    There is no such thing as providing health care in
    this country. What we have is sick care, not health
    care.

    The Walmart business modely requires cheap suppliers to provide cheap prices. That model is why this country has unemployment about 15% in real numbers.

    Walmart, like many other employers, are falling back
    to using part time employees as a means of getting around
    Obamacare. And until this country decides to get real
    about health care reform, such problems will continue
    to exist. Obamacare is not universal health care.
    It was never designed for that purpose. What it does
    is mandates each state to create its own version of
    Romneycare. Republicans hate that. For a Cemocrat
    to out-Republican Republicans.

    Apply that to body parts.

    Walmart selling body parts? With Mitt Romney
    their pitch man? Hmmm...

    To sell in quantity you have to have a supply of cheap parts.

    That can be arranged. Mormons have the answer, as found in
    their very own Book of Mormon.

    That means a lot of donors/sellers.

    Mormons have the experience in that category.

    With enough sellers you will be able to buy a kidney for $1000. To
    maintain
    that we have to maintain a large number of people in poverty in this country.

    Mormons are missionaries. For example, Mitt Romney did
    his missionary work in France. Not sure how many converts
    he made, given virtually every Frenchman and Frenchwoman
    was already a Christian. But he did learn how to speak
    French. And how to kiss no wait a minute Mitt Romney
    is a family guy and would never French kiss anywone ...

    It's hard enough to get a congress owned by the rich to do
    anything to help lift people from poverty, with a need for cheap
    body parts there will be that much more incentive to keep a
    large portion of the population poor.

    Not to worry. With Obama everything gonna be free.

    --Lee

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From BOB KLAHN@1:123/140 to LEE LOFASO on Thu Dec 4 01:09:00 2014


    Yep. I am both pro-life and opposed to selling body parts.

    Yet it is okay to sell locks of hair to companies that
    manufacture wigs. Some folks choose to donate locks of
    ...
    are not opposed to selling or giving away hair, whether

    You can give a kidney away, you just can't sell it.

    ...

    Wrong, I figured it out long ago.

    If folks can sell or give away hair, why not other body
    parts?

    Cause you grow back hair. It's not critical ... to most people.

    Now back to reality -

    Ok, who wrote this and signed Lee's name to it?

    The otherworldlee Lee.

    Ok, I believe that. After I checked it with the Men in Black.




    You called her in 1997?

    The Wayback Machine is a most wonderful device ...






    You can donate a kidney if you are alive, and have two good ones.

    You can donate somebody else's kidney and have two
    good ones. But if you donate one of your own kidneys,
    you'd best hope you have one good one left. :)






    How is a recipient going to know if he/she is receiving
    a good body part or a bad body part? Are body parts given
    ratings, such as excellent/good/fair/poor? Did Dick Cheney
    have a choice of which heart he could get before surgeons
    implanted him with a new heart? Or was he just lucky to
    have gotten a good one rather than another clunker?



    All too often the rich get what the poor need.

    Why should the poor receive what the rich need most?






    If somebody has the money and is willing to pay the price, the
    poor will never get a transplant again.

    So what? The poor will always be with us. The rich can
    at least make a difference, at least while they are still
    here. So might as well keep rich folks around for as long
    as possible.






    People in third world countries are willing to sell
    a kidney for $1000. That might seem cheap to you, but
    to them that is a fortune. Denying them the right to
    sell their own kidneys (or other body parts) would be
    keeping them in the poorhouse forever. Denying them
    any hope of escaping a lifetime of poverty.



    Walmart is trying to get into providing health care.

    There is no such thing as providing health care in
    this country. What we have is sick care, not health
    care.




    Walmart, like many other employers, are falling back
    to using part time employees as a means of getting around
    Obamacare. And until this country decides to get real
    about health care reform, such problems will continue
    to exist. Obamacare is not universal health care.
    It was never designed for that purpose. What it does



    is mandates each state to create its own version of
    Romneycare. Republicans hate that. For a Cemocrat
    to out-Republican Republicans.



    Apply that to body parts.

    Walmart selling body parts? With Mitt Romney
    their pitch man? Hmmm...

    To sell in quantity you have to have a supply of cheap parts.

    That means a lot of donors/sellers.
    With enough sellers you will be able to buy a kidney for $1000. To
    maintain
    that we have to maintain a large number of people in poverty in this
    country.


    Mormons are missionaries. For example, Mitt Romney did
    his missionary work in France. Not sure how many converts
    he made, given virtually every Frenchman and Frenchwoman
    was already a Christian. But he did learn how to speak
    French. And how to kiss no wait a minute Mitt Romney
    is a family guy and would never French kiss anywone ...



    It's hard enough to get a congress owned by the rich to do
    anything to help lift people from poverty, with a need for cheap
    body parts there will be that much more incentive to keep a
    large portion of the population poor.



    Not to worry. With Obama everything gonna be free.

    BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

    ... (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore, (K)ick system?
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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to BOB KLAHN on Fri Dec 5 02:07:52 2014
    Hello Bob,

    Yep. I am both pro-life and opposed to selling body parts.

    Yet it is okay to sell locks of hair to companies that
    manufacture wigs. Some folks choose to donate locks of
    ...
    are not opposed to selling or giving away hair, whether

    You can give a kidney away, you just can't sell it.

    You can offer to give a kidney away, but it is up to others
    to decide whether that kidney will be or can be used.

    By not allowing body parts (such as kidneys) to be sold,
    there is a limitation on the number of body parts that can
    be made available. And that keeps prices high, too high
    for those without insurance to be able to obtain.

    Except for the independently wealthy, who can get anything
    they want whether legal or not.

    Wrong, I figured it out long ago.

    If folks can sell or give away hair, why not other body
    parts?

    Cause you grow back hair. It's not critical ... to most people.

    Karl Rove with hair? You gotta be kiddin' me.
    Don Rickles with hair? You gotta be kiddin' me.
    Bruce Willis with hair? You gotta be kiddin' me.
    James Carville with hair? You gotta be kiddin' me.
    Bob Klahn with hair? Er, I'll shut up now ...

    Now back to reality -

    Ok, who wrote this and signed Lee's name to it?

    The otherworldlee Lee.

    Ok, I believe that. After I checked it with the Men in Black.

    Well, that third episode was a bit of a clunker for Tommy Lee.
    But at least he survived. Sort of. :)

    --Lee

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From BOB KLAHN@1:123/140 to LEE LOFASO on Sun Jan 11 00:03:00 2015

    ...

    By not allowing body parts (such as kidneys) to be sold,
    there is a limitation on the number of body parts that can
    be made available. And that keeps prices high, too high
    for those without insurance to be able to obtain.

    Except for the independently wealthy, who can get anything
    they want whether legal or not.

    Which is why the entire system should be strictly controlled,
    and govt paid for.

    ...

    Now back to reality -

    Ok, who wrote this and signed Lee's name to it?

    The otherworldlee Lee.

    Ok, I believe that. After I checked it with the Men in Black.

    Well, that third episode was a bit of a clunker for Tommy
    Lee. But at least he survived. Sort of. :)

    I think Tommy Lee was out of it because he's not up to such
    performance any more.

    But you are right on the clunker point. Number 2 wasn't up to
    spec either, IMO.


    BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

    ... Bhuddism: Life's a bitch; you die; you do it over and over again!
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