• Re: Penruddock and Lowther

    From Venelow@1:396/4 to All on Thu Sep 6 22:15:35 2018
    From: Venelow <venelow@gmail.com>

    On Wednesday, September 5, 2018 at 10:42:07 AM UTC-4, Andrew Lancaster wrot=
    Hudleston wrote articles published in CWAAS Transactions, "Cumberland and=
    Westmorland Antiquarian and Archaeological Society Transactions", and thes=
    e are now searchable on http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk.

    Easiest is simply to do a google search as follows "site:archaeologydatas=
    ervice.ac.uk hudleston"

    Obviously you can also add terms such as "Lowther" etc.


    Thanks for your suggestion Andrew. CWAAS Transactions is a wonderful source=
    for those counties. I had come across the website in the course of my rese= arch. I am continuing to use it to try and track down the Penruddock family=
    before they moved south. However they didn't start to make a name for them= selves until the three sons of Edward Penruddock and Elizabeth (possibly Hi= ghmore) left Cumberland. I have other Cumberland interests namely the ance= stors of Stephen Bowman who also moved to Wiltshire. It seems the two famil= ies were closely linked by marriage.

    Thank you for responding.
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    * Origin: News Gate @ Net396 -Huntsville, AL - USA (1:396/4)
  • From Venelow@1:396/4 to All on Thu Sep 6 23:14:27 2018
    From: Venelow <venelow@gmail.com>

    On Tuesday, September 4, 2018 at 8:49:08 PM UTC-4, ch...@dickinson.uk.net w= rote:
    On Wednesday, 5 September 2018 00:31:51 UTC+1, Venelow wrote:
    On Sunday, September 2, 2018 at 5:39:07 PM UTC-4, John Higgins wrote:
    On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 8:53:53 PM UTC-7, Venelow wrote:
    On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 3:19:45 PM UTC-4, Venelow wrote:
    Hi Medievalists

    I am researching family history and am now on unfamiliar ground. =
    A family tree provided by a professional genealogist many years ago links t=
    o the Penruddock family through Mary the daughter of Sir Edward and Mary (M= assey) who married Stephen Bowman. The information about the Penruddocks en=
    ds with Robert P. of Arkelby, Cumberland who is said to have married Agnes = the dau. and h. of Sir William Leigh and his father Thomas P. said to have = married Agnes Lowther the daughter of Sir John Lowther of Westmorland.

    This information appears to have come from Crisp's Visitations. T=
    here are no dates attached to Robert or Thomas. I have worked out that Agn=
    es Leigh was the daughter of Sir William Leigh who died in 1439 leaving an = heir who was still in their minority. This comes from his father's (also Si=
    r William Leigh) entry in the History of Parliament series about early M.Ps=

    It appears that Agnes Leigh's parents were William Leigh and Isob=
    el Lowther and they married in 1424. Isobel was one of the daughters of Rob= ert Lowther and Margaret Strickland and Robert was the son of Sir John Lowt= her and Maud/Margaret Preston. (Rev. C.M. Lowther Bouch CW2 48 p122)

    I have not been able to find a daughter of Sir John Lowther calle=
    d Agnes and the chronology seems to be a bit off. I did find a Thomas Penru= ddock was a witness to the nuncupative will of Robert Lowther dated 17 Marc=
    h 1429/30. If this is the same Thomas Penruddock (father of Robert) then it=
    does appear that the two families were well acquainted if not actually rel= ated by marriage at that date.

    If Thomas Penruddock did marry a daughter of Sir John Lowther the=
    n Robert's mother would be his wife's great aunt and Robert and Agnes would=
    be first cousins once removed.
    Does anyone have any information about Agnes Lowther or confirmat=
    ion of who Thomas Penruddock of Arkelby married?

    Any insight into this problem gratefully recieved. Thanks for rea=


    Thank you John. I knew about the Owen book but did not know it was =
    available online. However the information in it has thrown up more problems=
    with the Penruddock tree as presented in the Visitations of England and Wa= les Vol 4 1902 by Frederick Arthur Crisp.
    That shows Edward Penruddock of Arkelby who died before 27 Sept 156=
    0 husband of Elizabeth Highmore. His father Robert P. of Arkelby husband of=
    Agnes Leigh dau and h. of William Leigh and his father Thomas P. husband o=
    f Agnes Lowther.

    In the Owen book the Agnes Lowther and Thomas Penruddock marriage i=
    s some generations after the William Leigh Isobel marriage instead of being=
    before. It seems the "Professional Genealogist" of approx.60 to 70 years a=
    go was not very diligent. This is not the first time I have found the infor= mation provided in this tree to be inaccurate. Back to the drawing board <s=

    If anyone has credible information on the Penruddocks from Sir Geor=
    ge of Ivy Church, Wilts M.P. for Salisbury 1552/3 back into Cumberland I wo= uld be grateful to receive it.

    Many thanks.

    I think the problem here may lie not in the family of Penrudduck, but=
    rather in the family of Leigh of Isell =E2=80=93 and specifically in the i= dentification of the Sir William Leigh whose daughter Agnes married Robert = Penruddock of Arkelby.

    I'm not aware of any good pedigree of the family, but it seem=
    s that there were five Williams in succession in the late 14th century and = throughout the 15th century. The family continued to produce MPs for Cumbe= rland as late as the reign of Elizabeth I, but the connection of the later = Leighs to the earlier ones is not very clear.

    The five Williams seem to have been easily confused by various author=
    s (including which one served as MP at which times), but this is what I=E2= =80=99ve been able to piece together from Roskell's HOP 1386-1421, =
    Wedgwood's HOP 1439-1509, and various articles (not always accurate=
    ) in Transactions of the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeologi= cal Society.

    1. William Leigh (living 1394); m. Katherine NN
    2. Sir William Leigh (d. 1428), MP various times between 1399 and 141=
    9; m. Agnes, dau. of Sir Clement Skelton
    3. Sir William Leigh (aged 40 [or 34?] at father's death, d. =
    1439), MP 1433 [or 1423?]; m. Isabel, dau. of Sir Robert Lowther
    4. Sir William Leigh (beheaded 1462), MP 1459
    5. Sir William Leigh, Sheriff of Cumberland 1469; m. Elizabeth, dau. =
    of John Hudleston (m. (2) Sir Edward Redman)

    I can presently find no later William Leigh, but that doesn't=
    mean there wasn't one. Based on this construction, however, I=E2=
    =80=99d suggest that Agnes Leigh who married Robert Penruddock was probably=
    not the daughter of the Sir William Leigh who married Agnes Lowther. It=
    's more likely, but definitely not certain, that she was the daught=
    er of the last known Sir William Leigh, Sheriff in 1469. The chronology he=
    re is better than the alternative, but it's not great. Perhaps the=
    Penruddock pedigrees simply mis-identified the name of Agnes Leigh=E2=80=
    =99s father - maybe he wasn't a William at all.

    Hi Again John

    Thank you for your reply re Sir William Leigh (Legh Lee, Ley etc.). I s=
    pent last weekend looking for more information on the Leighs and found a tr=
    ee online that stated the son of Sir William Leigh (II) had a son called W= illiam who married Elizabeth Hudleston. So I was already suspecting my theo=
    ry that the heir who was a minor when Sir William II died in 1439, referred=
    to in the History of Parliament biography of his father William I, was no=
    t a daughter called Agnes. It had looked most promising especially as the = pedigree states she was the hieress of Sir William Leigh and she appeared t=
    o be called after her grandmother Agnes Skelton. I agree that since the nam=
    e Leigh Lee etc is so profilic there could be an error as to his first name=

    I have also been looking at the information from Hugh Owen's bo=
    ok that Agnes Lowther the daughter of Sir John Lowther c. 1487 =E2=80=93 1= 553 was the Agnes that married Thomas Penruddock. This information is in C= hapter 5 on page 58. There is a source note number 13 on p. 418 which refe= rences Sir John's will as a source for his wife Lucy surviving him.=
    Then adds =E2=80=9CFor Thomas Penruddock see Harleian Society Vol 10 p.148=
    Wiltshire Visitations 1623.=E2=80=9D

    I managed to track down Sir John's Will of 1552 and there is no=
    mention of Agnes or any Penruddock grandchildren. I could not find the Vo=
    l 10 version of the Wiltshire Visitations of 1623 but I did find other edit= ions. One edited by George W Marshall p.66 =E2=80=93 67 does not mention Th= omas Penruddock and Agnes Lowther but starts with Sir George Penruddock and=
    Elizabeth Apryce and mentions that his father was Edward of Arkelby. Anot= her version published in 1828 starts with George Penruddock son of Edward o=
    f Arkleby and completely misses his son Edward who married Mary Massey and = proceeds with his grandson John who who married Joan Mead.

    The Wiltshire Visitations of 1565 and the Cumberland Visitations of 161=
    3 do start with Thomas Penruddock and Agnes Lowther but no dates are mentio= ned. I assume the Vol 10 version of 1623 includes the earlier information.

    There is a drawing of the Penruddock Arms in the 1613 Visitations. The =
    arms were granted to George Penruddock in 1548. The six annulets of the Lo= wther family feature in the bottom left quarter. I don't know what the othe=
    r two quarters are.

    Guess I'll just keep digging. Thank you for taking the time to answer.


    Just a thought that probably isn't very helpful. Roy Hudleston did a lot =
    of work on Cumbrian families and I'm not sure how much has been published b= eyond 'Cumberland Families & Heraldry'. He donated all his papers to Durham=
    University, so it might be worth contacting their archivist.



    Hi Chris

    Thank you for that information. In trying to work out if there is a Lowther=
    or Leigh connection I am trying to find out about the Penruddock coat of a= rms which was, according to his biography on the History of Parliament site=
    , granted in 1548. This was twenty years before he was knighted in 1568. He=
    died in 1581 and in the Visitations of Cumberland 1615 the coat of arms is=
    quartered with the arms of Sandford, Lowther and either Lumley or Thweng? = The editor is not sure.

    I found the fourth quarter in the Visitation of Yorkshire, 1564 as belongin=
    g to the Aslakeby (or Aslaby) family but there is a Thweng mentioned in the=
    The Sandford pedigree was also in the Yorks 1564. No mention of any Penrudd= ocks in these pedigrees. Sir George's father Edward d.c. 1560 is said to ha=
    ve married Elizabeth Highmoor and there is a Sandford in the Highmore pedig= ree but no suitable candidate to be the Elizabeth married to Edward.

    So I am interested as to how these additions to the Penruddock arms came ab= out.
    I guess I have to find a copy of Roy Hudleston's book and see if they are m= entioned.

    Thanks for responding.
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    * Origin: News Gate @ Net396 -Huntsville, AL - USA (1:396/4)