• 2023 FTSC Standing Member Election - Preliminary Results

    From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to All on Sun Mar 19 18:20:03 2023
    The polls have closed for the 2023 FTSC Standing Member Election.

    18 ballots were received from 17 RCs in 3 Zones. 1 ballot was rejected,
    and 1 ballot was revised prior to the closing of the polls.

    The preliminary results are below:

    ----------------------------------------------
    | Name | Node nr | Yes| No |
    |----------------------|-------------|----|----|
    | Andrew Leary | 1:320/219 | 16 | |
    | Carol Shenkenberger | 1:275/100 | 6 | 10 |
    | Nick Andre | 1:229/426 | 12 | 4 |
    | Deon George | 3:633/509 | 12 | 4 |
    | Maurice Kinal | 1:153/7001 | 7 | 9 |
    | mark lewis | 1:3634/12 | 8 | 8 |
    ----------------------------------------------

    Ballots Received
    ----------------

    RC33
    RC24
    RC25
    RC20
    RC28
    RC29
    RC54
    RC10
    RC19
    RC40
    RC56
    RC50
    RC12
    RC13
    RC17
    RC34
    RC33 (Revised)
    RC11

    Ballots Rejected/Reason
    -----------------------

    RC25 - Not listed as RC in NODELIST.027 as issued by Z2C

    Candidates Andrew Leary, Nick Andre, and Deon George received more Yes
    than No votes, and therefore will be accepted as Standing Members of the
    FTSC for a 2 year term, barring any challenges to the results.

    Challenges to the results must be filed by 20:00 UTC on 26 March 2023. No challenges will be considered if received late. If there are no challenges that affect the results, the new terms will be effective on 27 March 2023.

    Regards,

    Andrew
    FTSC Election Coordinator

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
    * Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)
  • From deon@3:633/509 to Andrew Leary on Mon Mar 20 12:46:39 2023
    Re: 2023 FTSC Standing Member Election - Preliminary Results
    By: Andrew Leary to All on Sun Mar 19 2023 06:20 pm

    Hey Andrew,

    18 ballots were received from 17 RCs in 3 Zones. 1 ballot was rejected,
    and 1 ballot was revised prior to the closing of the polls.

    RC33 (Revised)

    Last message I saw regarding RC33's vote was from you saying that votes couldnt be alterted after submission.

    It looks like it was alterted (which I dont question) - but I'm wondering if I missed any correspondence in this echo about it being accepted?

    (I've noticed missing messages in this echo in the past, and I'm trying to figure out if it is my system or something upstream.)


    ...δεσ∩
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    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)
  • From Nigel Reed@1:124/5016 to Andrew Leary on Mon Mar 20 00:46:50 2023
    On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 18:20:03 -0400
    "Andrew Leary" <andrew.leary@1:320/219> wrote:

    The polls have closed for the 2023 FTSC Standing Member Election.

    18 ballots were received from 17 RCs in 3 Zones. 1 ballot was
    rejected, and 1 ballot was revised prior to the closing of the polls.

    The preliminary results are below:

    ----------------------------------------------
    | Name | Node nr | Yes| No |
    |----------------------|-------------|----|----|
    | Andrew Leary | 1:320/219 | 16 | |
    | Carol Shenkenberger | 1:275/100 | 6 | 10 |
    | Nick Andre | 1:229/426 | 12 | 4 |
    | Deon George | 3:633/509 | 12 | 4 |
    | Maurice Kinal | 1:153/7001 | 7 | 9 |
    | mark lewis | 1:3634/12 | 8 | 8 |
    ----------------------------------------------

    Ballots Received
    ----------------

    RC33
    RC24
    RC25
    RC20
    RC28
    RC29
    RC54
    RC10
    RC19
    RC40
    RC56
    RC50
    RC12
    RC13
    RC17
    RC34
    RC33 (Revised)
    RC11

    Ballots Rejected/Reason
    -----------------------

    RC25 - Not listed as RC in NODELIST.027 as issued by Z2C

    Candidates Andrew Leary, Nick Andre, and Deon George received more Yes
    than No votes, and therefore will be accepted as Standing Members of
    the FTSC for a 2 year term, barring any challenges to the results.

    Challenges to the results must be filed by 20:00 UTC on 26 March
    2023. No challenges will be considered if received late. If there
    are no challenges that affect the results, the new terms will be
    effective on 27 March 2023.

    Maybe, in future, the person who has accepted a nomination should not
    also be the person running the election. I'm not questioning Andrew's integrity, but it does seem rather strange that no region voted no
    where everyone else got at least 4 no votes. Only 2 of the other 5
    candidates received a clear majority. It seems to be a conflict of
    interest, imho.
    --
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  • From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to deon on Mon Mar 20 02:15:29 2023
    Hello deon!

    20 Mar 23 12:46, you wrote to me:

    Hey Andrew,

    18 ballots were received from 17 RCs in 3 Zones. 1 ballot was
    rejected, and 1 ballot was revised prior to the closing of the
    polls.

    RC33 (Revised)

    Last message I saw regarding RC33's vote was from you saying that
    votes couldnt be alterted after submission.

    It looks like it was alterted (which I dont question) - but I'm
    wondering if I missed any correspondence in this echo about it being accepted?

    Due to the time frame of the revision being made and the closing of the polls, the revision was made as the preliminary results were assembled. I personally do not agree that the revision should have been accepted, but I was overruled by the International Coordinator. In the future, the rules will explicitly state that ballots cannot be altered once submitted.

    (I've noticed missing messages in this echo in the past, and I'm
    trying to figure out if it is my system or something upstream.)

    I have noted the same issue, and am attempting to track down the black hole that messages have been disappearing into.

    Andrew

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
    * Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)
  • From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to Nigel Reed on Mon Mar 20 02:51:57 2023
    Hello Nigel!

    20 Mar 23 00:46, you wrote to me:

    Maybe, in future, the person who has accepted a nomination should not
    also be the person running the election. I'm not questioning Andrew's integrity, but it does seem rather strange that no region voted no
    where everyone else got at least 4 no votes. Only 2 of the other 5 candidates received a clear majority. It seems to be a conflict of interest, imho.

    FTA-1001 specifies that the FTSC Administrator is responsible for coordinating all membership nominations and voting. All ballots are submitted in the FTSC_PUBLIC echo, so that any/all interested parties can track the results themselves, if they so desire.

    As an RC, I could have voted in the election myself. I chose not to do so, for 2 reasons:

    1. My request to the sysops of my Region for input on the candidates did not receive any response.
    2. To avoid any appearance of a conflict of interest, especially since in some cases 1 vote could affect the results for a candidate. It should also be noted that in the entire time I have been an RC, I have abstained from voting for myself.

    Any questions regarding the voters' reasoning for their choices should be addressed with those voters via NetMail.

    I am certainly willing to entertain constructive suggestions on how to improve the process.

    Andrew

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
    * Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)
  • From Nigel Reed@1:124/5016 to All on Mon Mar 20 02:55:17 2023
    On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 02:51:57 -0400
    Andrew Leary wrote:

    Hello Nigel!

    20 Mar 23 00:46, you wrote to me:

    Maybe, in future, the person who has accepted a nomination
    should not also be the person running the election. I'm not
    questioning Andrew's integrity, but it does seem rather strange
    that no region voted no where everyone else got at least 4 no
    votes. Only 2 of the other 5 candidates received a clear
    majority. It seems to be a conflict of interest, imho.

    FTA-1001 specifies that the FTSC Administrator is responsible for coordinating all membership nominations and voting. All ballots are submitted in the FTSC_PUBLIC echo, so that any/all interested parties
    can track the results themselves, if they so desire.

    As an RC, I could have voted in the election myself. I chose not to
    do so, for 2 reasons:

    1. My request to the sysops of my Region for input on the candidates
    did not receive any response.
    2. To avoid any appearance of a conflict of interest, especially
    since in some cases 1 vote could affect the results for a candidate.
    It should also be noted that in the entire time I have been an RC, I
    have abstained from voting for myself.

    Any questions regarding the voters' reasoning for their choices
    should be addressed with those voters via NetMail.

    I am certainly willing to entertain constructive suggestions on how
    to improve the process.

    All fair points. Thank you.
    --
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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Andrew Leary on Mon Mar 20 12:45:18 2023
    Hello Andrew,

    On Monday March 20 2023 02:15, you wrote to deon:

    Due to the time frame of the revision being made and the closing of
    the polls, the revision was made as the preliminary results were assembled. I personally do not agree that the revision should have
    been accepted, but I was overruled by the International Coordinator.
    In the future, the rules will explicitly state that ballots cannot be altered once submitted.

    I object.

    During my watch there was a precedent. Björn Felten, RC20, once requested that his vote be changed. I rejected the request, a vote cast is a vote cast. After some debate, my ruling was accepted by those concerned. I see that you intended to follow the precedent. That should have been the end of it.

    The International Coordinator has a role in the election as primus inter pares of the ZCC when the ZCC decides to establish a nominating committee as documented in FTA-1001.007 paragraph 3.2. And that is it. Beyond that the IC is just a sysop as any other sysop in Fidonet when the FTSC holds an election.

    In casu: the IC does not have the authority to overrule a decision made by the election coordinator.

    I therefore insist that the ICs intervention is ignored and that it is the first vote and only the first vote of RC33 that counts.


    Michiel van der Vlist, RC28.

    --- Fmail, Binkd, Golded
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Ulrich Schroeter@2:240/1120 to Nigel Reed on Mon Mar 20 18:20:18 2023
    Hi Nigel,

    20 Mar 23 00:46, from Nigel Reed -> Andrew Leary, in URL ...
    Maybe, in future, the person who has accepted a nomination should not
    also be the person running the election. I'm not questioning Andrew's integrity, but it does seem rather strange that no region voted no
    where everyone else got at least 4 no votes. Only 2 of the other 5 candidates received a clear majority. It seems to be a conflict of interest, imho.

    I cannot see any reason for conflict of interests here ...
    The entire election was running in the public and not secret
    so you could count every incoming votes as every other sysop
    whoever you want to appoint as a voting manager everybody can assume a conflict of interest
    as long as its in the secret ...
    but ... we're all in the public
    I've voted late as I first have collected some advises from the region sysops so what I've got for the vote I voted for the region 56


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    regards, uli ;-)
    --- GoldED-NSF/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-20090710
    * Origin: AMBROSIA - Bad Ueberkingen - Germany (2:240/1120)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Mar 20 16:40:00 2023
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Andrew Leary <=-

    Due to the time frame of the revision being made and the closing of
    the polls, the revision was made as the preliminary results were assembled. I personally do not agree that the revision should have
    been accepted, but I was overruled by the International Coordinator.
    In the future, the rules will explicitly state that ballots cannot be altered once submitted.

    I object.

    During my watch there was a precedent. Björn Felten, RC20, once
    requested that his vote be changed. I rejected the request, a
    vote cast is a vote cast. After some debate, my ruling was
    accepted by those concerned. I see that you intended to follow
    the precedent. That should have been the end of it.

    The International Coordinator has a role in the election as
    primus inter pares of the ZCC when the ZCC decides to establish a nominating committee as documented in FTA-1001.007 paragraph 3.2.
    And that is it. Beyond that the IC is just a sysop as any other
    sysop in Fidonet when the FTSC holds an election.

    In casu: the IC does not have the authority to overrule a
    decision made by the election coordinator.

    I therefore insist that the ICs intervention is ignored and that
    it is the first vote and only the first vote of RC33 that counts.

    As much as it surprises me, I must say that I agree with Michiel here.

    Not only the precedent is important, but the general nature of changing
    a vote. Did the RC in question change his vote because of "secret" peer pressure that the public isn't aware of? Did he see an outcome coming
    that he didn't like, and wanted to attempt to change it? We don't (and
    won't) know those answers. In *ANY* other election in real life, a
    person isn't allowed to change their vote once it's cast. Why
    would/should one be allowed to do so here?

    As far as my understanding goes, I don't think that in this case at
    least, the outcome was changed, but it could have been. I firmly
    support a rules change to prohibit changing a vote after it has been
    cast.


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  • From Angel Ripoll@2:341/66 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Mon Mar 20 23:28:46 2023
    Hola Michiel!

    20 Mar 23 12:45, Michiel van der Vlist dijo a Andrew Leary:

    MvdV> On Monday March 20 2023 02:15, you wrote to deon:

    Due to the time frame of the revision being made and the closing of
    the polls, the revision was made as the preliminary results were
    assembled. I personally do not agree that the revision should have
    been accepted, but I was overruled by the International Coordinator.
    In the future, the rules will explicitly state that ballots cannot be
    altered once submitted.

    MvdV> I object.

    I totally agree with Michiel

    MvdV> I therefore insist that the ICs intervention is ignored and that it is
    MvdV> the first vote and only the first vote of RC33 that counts.

    I think it would be the best and not set a precedent of being able to change a vote once it has been voted

    Un saludo,
    Angel Ripoll
    aripoll @ zruspas.org

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    * Origin: Synchronet - bbs.zruspas.org - Zruspa's BBS - (2:341/66)
  • From Stephen Walsh@3:633/280 to deon on Tue Mar 21 11:39:02 2023

    Hello deon!

    20 Mar 23 12:46, you wrote to Andrew Leary:

    (I've noticed missing messages in this echo in the past, and I'm
    trying to figure out if it is my system or something upstream.)

    See netmail...



    Stephen


    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20220409
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair BBS, Telnet: dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (3:633/280)
  • From Torsten Bamberg@2:240/5832 to Ulrich Schroeter on Wed Mar 22 23:53:41 2023
    Hallo Ulrich!

    20.03.2023 18:20, Ulrich Schroeter schrieb an Nigel Reed:

    It seems to be a conflict of interest, imho.
    I cannot see any reason for conflict of interests here ...
    Me either. The voting process went with this procedures during the last years, and it's also defined at the ftsc rules. There is no need for any further discussions, except some one initiates a changing of ftsc rules.

    regards, uli ;-)
    Bye/2 Torsten

    ... MAILBOX01: up 4d 1h 28m load: 39 proc, 188 threads (tbup1.1)
    --- GoldED+/OS2 1.1.5-23
    * Origin: DatenBahn BBS Hamburg (2:240/5832)
  • From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Mar 22 23:29:07 2023
    Hello Michiel!

    20 Mar 23 12:45, you wrote to me:

    I object.

    During my watch there was a precedent. Bjrn Felten, RC20, once
    requested that his vote be changed. I rejected the request, a vote
    cast is a vote cast. After some debate, my ruling was accepted by
    those concerned. I see that you intended to follow the precedent. That should have been the end of it.

    The International Coordinator has a role in the election as primus
    inter pares of the ZCC when the ZCC decides to establish a nominating committee as documented in FTA-1001.007 paragraph 3.2. And that is it. Beyond that the IC is just a sysop as any other sysop in Fidonet when
    the FTSC holds an election.

    In casu: the IC does not have the authority to overrule a decision
    made by the election coordinator.

    I therefore insist that the ICs intervention is ignored and that it is
    the first vote and only the first vote of RC33 that counts.

    Michiel van der Vlist, RC28.

    I have received your challenge to the preliminary results. In reviewing historical precedent, I find that your position is indeed correct. In previous elections, the first ballot cast by any voter was counted, and revisions were not allowed.

    Therefore, I sustain your objection and the results will be updated to reflect only the first vote received from RC33.

    Regards,

    Andrew
    FTSC Election Coordinator

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
    * Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Andrew Leary on Thu Mar 23 07:35:44 2023
    Andrew,

    I have received your challenge to the preliminary results. In reviewing historical precedent, ...

    Historical precedent states that you can only challenge the way how your own ballot was processed, not what happened to someone else's ...

    Meaning Michiel's objection ought to be rejected.

    Take care,

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Thu Mar 23 07:51:31 2023
    Ward Dossche -> Andrew Leary skrev 2023-03-23 07:35:
    Historical precedent states that you can only challenge the way how your own ballot was processed, not what happened to someone else's ...

    Meaning Michiel's objection ought to be rejected.

    I second the notion.


    --

    In a democracy, uninformed people are dangerous people.

    ..

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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:28/0 to Andrew Leary on Thu Mar 23 09:19:15 2023
    Hello Andrew,

    On Wednesday March 22 2023 23:29, you wrote to me:

    Therefore, I sustain your objection and the results will be updated to reflect only the first vote received from RC33.

    Thank you.


    Michiel van der Vlist, RC28


    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Nieuw Schnøørd (2:28/0)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Andrew Leary on Thu Mar 23 11:26:36 2023
    Hello Andrew,

    Thursday March 23 2023 07:35, Ward Dossche wrote to you:

    I have received your challenge to the preliminary results. In
    reviewing historical precedent, ...

    Historical precedent states that you can only challenge the way how
    your own ballot was processed, not what happened to someone else's ...

    There is no such historical precedent. Ward is making it up for the occasion.

    Meaning Michiel's objection ought to be rejected.

    Even if it could be demonstrated that such a hypothetical precedence exists and a decision made by the vote coordinator can only be challenged by a voter regarding his/her own vote, then by that same reasoning Ward's challenge is null and void as he is not a voter.


    Michiel van der Vlist, RC28.

    --- Fmail, Binkd, Golded
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Ward Dossche on Thu Mar 23 07:28:00 2023
    Ward Dossche wrote to Andrew Leary <=-

    I have received your challenge to the preliminary results. In reviewing historical precedent, ...

    Historical precedent states that you can only challenge the way
    how your own ballot was processed, not what happened to someone
    else's ...

    What historical precedent states that? Specifics, please, such as date/subject/names. Where do you see such a precedent?

    Meaning Michiel's objection ought to be rejected.

    Well, that's your opinion, anyway. The official election coordinator
    doesn't agree with it, which is all that matters.

    As an aside, can you name another election (of any kind) where a person
    can go back and change their vote after it's been cast?


    ... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.
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  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Björn Felten on Thu Mar 23 07:30:00 2023
    Björn Felten wrote to Ward Dossche <=-

    Historical precedent states that you can only challenge the way how your own ballot was processed, not what happened to someone else's ...
    Meaning Michiel's objection ought to be rejected.

    I second the notion.

    Of course you do. Good thing your opinion is just as meaningless and irrelevant as his.



    ... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it. === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
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  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Mar 23 07:33:00 2023
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Andrew Leary <=-

    I have received your challenge to the preliminary results. In
    reviewing historical precedent, ...

    Historical precedent states that you can only challenge the way how
    your own ballot was processed, not what happened to someone else's ...

    There is no such historical precedent. Ward is making it up for
    the occasion.

    Yup. I've asked him in a separate post to provide a citation to this imaginary precedent, and I know exactly how he's going to respond (it
    won't be with any actual reference/citation).

    Meaning Michiel's objection ought to be rejected.

    Even if it could be demonstrated that such a hypothetical
    precedence exists and a decision made by the vote coordinator can
    only be challenged by a voter regarding his/her own vote, then by
    that same reasoning Ward's challenge is null and void as he is
    not a voter.

    Game. Set. Match.

    Case dismissed and closed.



    ... All the easy problems have been solved.
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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Mar 23 13:44:41 2023
    Michiel,

    Meaning Michiel's objection ought to be rejected.

    Even if it could be demonstrated that such a hypothetical precedence
    exists and a decision made by the vote coordinator can only be challenged by a voter regarding his/her own vote, then by that same reasoning Ward's challenge is null and void as he is not a voter.

    Thank you for confirming my point of view ...

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Dan Clough on Thu Mar 23 15:33:47 2023
    Hello Dan,

    Ahhh ... finally, here's the trumpet section of Michiel's orchestra ...

    What historical precedent states that? Specifics, please, such as date/subject/names. Where do you see such a precedent?

    How much time do you allow me to dig it up? Just so you are aware, I can only start digging it up after April 9th ... busy until then with a worldcup in gymnastics:

    https://ambitious-pro-gymnastics.be/world-cup/

    Well, that's your opinion, anyway. The official election coordinator doesn't agree with it, which is all that matters.

    I'm OK with that.

    As an aside, can you name another election (of any kind) where a person
    can go back and change their vote after it's been cast?

    Plenty ...

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Ward Dossche on Thu Mar 23 12:21:00 2023
    Ward Dossche wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    What historical precedent states that? Specifics, please, such as date/subject/names. Where do you see such a precedent?

    How much time do you allow me to dig it up? Just so you are
    aware, I can only start digging it up after April 9th ... busy
    until then with a worldcup in gymnastics:

    https://ambitious-pro-gymnastics.be/world-cup/

    That doesn't start until 2 weeks from now. You don't have a spare 30
    minutes between now and then?

    As an aside, can you name another election (of any kind) where a person can go back and change their vote after it's been cast?

    Plenty ...

    Uh-huh. And yet... you didn't actually *name* any, as was requested.
    No time for that, either?



    ... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Dan Clough on Thu Mar 23 22:46:20 2023
    Dan Clough -> Ward Dossche skrev 2023-03-23 13:28:
    As an aside, can you name another election (of any kind) where a person can go back and change their vote after it's been cast?

    Can you name a *democratic* election of any kind, where the votes are cast in the open, for everyone to see, before they vote accordingly themselves?

    Have you heard of peer pressure? Strategic voting?


    --

    In a democracy, uninformed people are dangerous people.

    ..

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  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Björn Felten on Thu Mar 23 20:08:00 2023
    Björn Felten wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Dan Clough -> Ward Dossche skrev 2023-03-23 13:28:

    As an aside, can you name another election (of any kind) where a person can go back and change their vote after it's been cast?

    Can you name a *democratic* election of any kind, where the
    votes are cast in the open, for everyone to see, before they vote accordingly themselves?

    Yes. Nearly ALL votes on the floor of the U.S. House, or the U.S.
    Senate, are televised live (on the 'CSPAN' cable channel(s)). It's
    openly visible to all other voters in the chamber, and to the public at
    large. Happens nearly every day.

    Have you heard of peer pressure? Strategic voting?

    Yes, both. That's exactly what happened here, obviously. I'm of the
    opinion that that shouldn't be allowed to change the outcome of an
    election. There is plenty of time PRIOR to the vote for pressure/lobbying/influence to take place, and then eventually, you cast
    your vote. The point there is that strategy takes place then, and
    people do what the influencers hope they will. They cast their vote
    based on all the input, and that's it. No revisions.

    Did you notice that the majority of the votes here came in over the last couple of days of the allowed time? Perfect indication of strategic
    voting.

    What sucks is when people vote based ONLY on personal dislikes, even if
    a candidate is qualified. That happened in this election too.



    ... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it. === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Dan Clough on Thu Mar 23 18:19:29 2023
    Hi, Dan -- on Mar 23 2023 at 20:08, you wrote:

    Did you notice that the majority of the votes here came in over the
    last couple of days of the allowed time? Perfect indication of
    strategic voting.

    FWIW, I gave my region until the Friday before the deadline to direct me how to vote. Only 1 person did so, and I happened to agree with their decision so that's how I voted. I didn't even look at the results to date before posting.

    Cheers... Dallas (RC17)

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Dan Clough on Fri Mar 24 03:33:47 2023
    Can you name a *democratic* election of any kind, where the
    votes are cast in the open, for everyone to see, before they vote
    accordingly themselves?

    Yes. Nearly ALL votes on the floor of the U.S. House, or the U.S.
    Senate, are televised live (on the 'CSPAN' cable channel(s)).

    So you don't know the difference between an *election* and a voting session? Figures...


    --

    In a democracy, uninformed people are dangerous people.

    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Terry Roati@3:712/1321 to Dallas Hinton on Fri Mar 24 17:54:46 2023

    I think most RC's leave it till fairly late so they can get feedback, I had 2 persons discuss it and voted a little earlier than planned as I was going overseas.

    I also think all the candidates were qualified, knowlegable and experienced
    and would have contributed to the FTSC, congratulations to those elected.

    Terry

    On Mar 23, 2023 06:19pm, Dallas Hinton wrote to Dan Clough:

    Hi, Dan -- on Mar 23 2023 at 20:08, you wrote:

    Did you notice that the majority of the votes here came in over the
    last couple of days of the allowed time? Perfect indication of
    strategic voting.

    FWIW, I gave my region until the Friday before the deadline to direct
    me how to vote. Only 1 person did so, and I happened to agree with
    their decision so that's how I voted. I didn't even look at the results
    to date before posting.

    Cheers... Dallas (RC17)

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)

    ... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
    * Origin: The File Bank BBS! https://tfb-bbs.org (3:712/1321)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Dan Clough on Fri Mar 24 09:24:27 2023
    Yes, both. That's exactly what happened here, obviously. I'm of the opinion that that shouldn't be allowed to change the outcome of an election. There is plenty of time PRIOR to the vote for pressure/lobbying/influence to take place, and then eventually, you cast your vote.

    The rules stated the voting period ended on the 19th 20h00 UTC... meaning it was possible to vote until that time. This whole discussion is about 'assumed intentions', not what the rules at that time said. Not a single existing rule dissallowed changing a vote ...it's not regulated b the current rules.

    What sucks is when people vote based ONLY on personal dislikes, even if
    a candidate is qualified. That happened in this election too.

    How quickly you forget when especially Bjorn was targetted (by Z1 RCs) during these elections in the past merely because of personal dislike. Technically most likely he is capable.

    Enjoy the coming week-end,

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Dan Clough on Fri Mar 24 09:36:40 2023
    Dan,

    https://ambitious-pro-gymnastics.be/world-cup/

    That doesn't start until 2 weeks from now. You don't have a spare 30 minutes between now and then?

    The event has already started months ago ... organizing 1500 hotel rooms for gymnasts, coaches, judges from around the world. Organizing the meals with a dietician (and a rabbi) straight/vegetarian/vegan/kosher/halal, organising the bus transports, organising the strict security demands by the state of Israel for their gymnasts incl. armed security guards, regular security, build-up of the conpetition venue, the communication network, scoring, live-streaming, finances, building a complete tent-village for services, permits, electrical power, lights ...

    On top of that my youngest daughter is about to deliver a baby any day now and I'm so nervous I can't sleep ...

    Don't talk about time, I'm retired, I have no time ... any retired person knows that.

    Plenty ...

    Uh-huh. And yet... you didn't actually *name* any, as was requested.

    You didn't ask for anything in particular. You just asked if I could. That question was answered with actual perfection.

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Dallas Hinton on Fri Mar 24 07:35:00 2023
    Dallas Hinton wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Did you notice that the majority of the votes here came in over the
    last couple of days of the allowed time? Perfect indication of
    strategic voting.

    FWIW, I gave my region until the Friday before the deadline to
    direct me how to vote. Only 1 person did so, and I happened to
    agree with their decision so that's how I voted. I didn't even
    look at the results to date before posting.

    Well, that's good. I'm pretty sure not all the other votes were done
    that way.



    ... All the easy problems have been solved.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Björn Felten on Fri Mar 24 07:40:00 2023
    Björn Felten wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Can you name a *democratic* election of any kind, where the
    votes are cast in the open, for everyone to see, before they vote
    accordingly themselves?

    Yes. Nearly ALL votes on the floor of the U.S. House, or the U.S.
    Senate, are televised live (on the 'CSPAN' cable channel(s)).

    So you don't know the difference between an *election* and a
    voting session? Figures...

    Well, I see your point there, but it could also be argued that the
    pass/fail vote for a piece of legislation is "electing" to put into
    place a new law (or not).

    So, here's a better example. A couple of months ago, the U.S. House
    elected a new Speaker of the House. Since you're an expert on the USA,
    I'm sure you know this already, but it's a pretty important position.
    So that *ELECTION* was also done on nationwide television, and the
    voters had to audibly shout out their choice/vote, as a roll call. Most certainly a democratic election, where the votes are cast in the open
    for all to see.

    Any further questions?



    ... If not for the last minute, nothing would get done.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Ward Dossche on Fri Mar 24 07:45:00 2023
    Ward Dossche wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    That doesn't start until 2 weeks from now. You don't have a spare 30 minutes between now and then?

    The event has already started months ago ... organizing 1500
    hotel rooms for gymnasts, coaches, judges from around the world. Organizing the meals with a dietician (and a rabbi) straight/vegetarian/vegan/kosher/halal, organising the bus
    transports, organising the strict security demands by the state
    of Israel for their gymnasts incl. armed security guards, regular security, build-up of the conpetition venue, the communication
    network, scoring, live-streaming, finances, building a complete tent-village for services, permits, electrical power, lights ...

    Sorry, but you're not doing all of that by yourself. My question
    remains - you don't have 30 minutes of time in the next 2 weeks?

    Plenty ...

    Uh-huh. And yet... you didn't actually *name* any, as was requested.

    You didn't ask for anything in particular. You just asked if I
    could. That question was answered with actual perfection.

    This is why I dislike trying to have a conversation with you. That's a bullshit answer and you know it. Don't be an asshole just because you
    can.



    ... If not for the last minute, nothing would get done.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Dan Clough on Fri Mar 24 15:46:37 2023
    Hello Dan,

    Sorry, but you're not doing all of that by yourself. My question
    remains - you don't have 30 minutes of time in the next 2 weeks?

    a) That is correct. I'm dealing with big screens, scoring, the judges network, superior judge review, in-venue wifi for internal communication, streaming-cabling -hardware -software, sound-pickup, paywall ... there's more ...

    b) If I start dealing with your request now I'll get distracted by it and it'll take more time than 30 minutes ... like going through 10+ years of Fidonews because "I know" it has been posted/used at one time...

    This is why I dislike trying to have a conversation with you. That's a bullshit answer and you know it. Don't be an asshole just because you
    can.

    That's not a bullshit answer, you just asked the wrong question.

    Enjoy the week-end ...

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Dan Clough on Fri Mar 24 16:37:13 2023
    I'm sure you know this already, but it's a pretty important position.
    So that *ELECTION*

    No. That was also a simple yes/no/abstain vote.

    Would you want e.g. the POTUS election demanding everyone to hold up their ballot for everyone to see, before being cast?


    --

    In a democracy, uninformed people are dangerous people.

    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Ward Dossche on Fri Mar 24 16:44:36 2023
    Hey Ward!

    Technically most likely he is capable.

    Possibly, but considering he can't get a simple character set correctly to spell his name correctly casts a huge shadow over your above estimation of his capabilities.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    o- o- o- o-
    /) /) /) /)
    ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
    ... Gewurdene wyrda, ðæt beoð ða feowere fæges rapas.
    Things which have happened: those are the four ropes of the doomed.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to All on Fri Mar 24 13:11:09 2023
    Re: 2023 FTSC Standing Member Election - Preliminary Results
    By: Andrew Leary to All on Sun Mar 19 2023 06:20 pm

    The polls have closed for the 2023 FTSC Standing Member Election.

    18 ballots were received from 17 RCs in 3 Zones. 1 ballot was rejected,
    and 1 ballot was revised prior to the closing of the polls.

    The preliminary results are below:

    ----------------------------------------------
    | Name | Node nr | Yes| No |
    |----------------------|-------------|----|----|
    | Andrew Leary | 1:320/219 | 16 | |
    | Carol Shenkenberger | 1:275/100 | 6 | 10 |
    | Nick Andre | 1:229/426 | 12 | 4 |
    | Deon George | 3:633/509 | 12 | 4 |
    | Maurice Kinal | 1:153/7001 | 7 | 9 |
    | mark lewis | 1:3634/12 | 8 | 8 |
    ----------------------------------------------

    Ballots Received
    ----------------

    RC33
    RC24
    RC25
    RC20
    RC28
    RC29
    RC54
    RC10
    RC19
    RC40
    RC56
    RC50
    RC12
    RC13
    RC17
    RC34
    RC33 (Revised)
    RC11

    Ballots Rejected/Reason
    -----------------------

    RC25 - Not listed as RC in NODELIST.027 as issued by Z2C

    Candidates Andrew Leary, Nick Andre, and Deon George received more Yes
    than No votes, and therefore will be accepted as Standing Members of the FTSC for a 2 year term, barring any challenges to the results.

    Challenges to the results must be filed by 20:00 UTC on 26 March 2023. No challenges will be considered if received late. If there are no challenges that affect the results, the new terms will be effective on 27 March 2023.

    Regards,

    Andrew
    FTSC Election Coordinator



    Thanks!
    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS telnet://shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Michael Dukelsky@2:5020/1042 to Dan Clough on Fri Mar 24 20:19:56 2023
    Hello Dan,

    Thursday March 23 2023, Dan Clough wrote to Ward Dossche:

    As an aside, can you name another election (of any kind) where a
    person can go back and change their vote after it's been cast?

    Yes, there was such an election. In the latest election to the Russian parliament voters in Moscow were allowed to vote online several times and only the last vote was counted. A voter could vote either offline or online. Unlike with the online votes only one offline vote was allowed. Several online votes were allowed for a reason. There were reports that the management of some enterprises associated with the state required their employees to provide proof that they voted for the candidate from the ruling party taking a photo of their vote. They were threatened that if they didn't, they would be fired. Therefore, it was allowed to vote online several times in order to allow the voter to eventually vote the way she/he wants.

    Michael

    ... node (at) f1042 (dot) ru
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230221
    * Origin: Moscow, Russia (2:5020/1042)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Michael Dukelsky on Fri Mar 24 17:31:34 2023
    Hey Michael!

    Therefore, it was allowed to vote online several times in order
    to allow the voter to eventually vote the way she/he wants.

    In the old days it was announced that whoever had caught a 'cold' and by the end of the week they'd be announcing a state funeral. I don't recall exactly how whoever got replaced but it appeared to be acceptable to all concerned.

    Keep it simple.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    o- -o -o o-
    /) (\ (\ /)
    ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
    ... Gif ðu wille godne hlisan habban, ne fægna ðu nanes yfeles.
    If you want to have a good reputation, don't rejoice in any evil.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Dan Clough on Fri Mar 24 13:29:44 2023
    Re: Re: 2023 FTSC Standing Member Election - Preliminary Results
    By: Dan Clough to Björn Felten on Thu Mar 23 2023 08:08 pm

    Björn Felten wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Dan Clough -> Ward Dossche skrev 2023-03-23 13:28:

    As an aside, can you name another election (of any kind) where a person can go back and change their vote after it's been cast?

    Can you name a *democratic* election of any kind, where the
    votes are cast in the open, for everyone to see, before they vote accordingly themselves?

    Yes. Nearly ALL votes on the floor of the U.S. House, or the U.S.
    Senate, are televised live (on the 'CSPAN' cable channel(s)). It's
    openly visible to all other voters in the chamber, and to the public at large. Happens nearly every day.

    Have you heard of peer pressure? Strategic voting?

    Yes, both. That's exactly what happened here, obviously. I'm of the opinion that that shouldn't be allowed to change the outcome of an
    election. There is plenty of time PRIOR to the vote for pressure/lobbying/influence to take place, and then eventually, you cast your vote. The point there is that strategy takes place then, and
    people do what the influencers hope they will. They cast their vote
    based on all the input, and that's it. No revisions.

    Did you notice that the majority of the votes here came in over the last couple of days of the allowed time? Perfect indication of strategic
    voting.

    What sucks is when people vote based ONLY on personal dislikes, even if
    a candidate is qualified. That happened in this election too.



    ... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it === MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    Actually Dan, the later voting is evidence the region was actually surveyed for votes. It's the ones who voted right away, that are questionable on surveying their nets. I'll have to go back and look, but pretty sure it was over 10 in R13 on the tally Mike posted in our R13 sysop echo.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS telnet://shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Mar 24 18:46:27 2023
    Maurice,

    Technically most likely he is capable.

    Possibly, but considering he can't get a simple character set correctly
    to spell his name correctly casts a huge shadow over your above
    estimation of his capabilities.

    I have not claimed that being technically capable means he cannot be an asshole ...

    It's not mutually exclusive ...

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Ward Dossche on Fri Mar 24 19:06:49 2023
    Hey Ward!

    I have not claimed that being technically capable means he cannot
    be an asshole ...

    I fail to see what that has to do with any definition of being technically capable.

    It's not mutually exclusive ...

    Do you think they should be?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    o- o- o- o-
    /) /) /) /)
    ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
    ... A mæg God wyrcan wunder æfter wundre, wuldres hyrde.
    God may ever work wonder after wonder, the Guardian of glory.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Björn Felten on Fri Mar 24 14:59:00 2023
    Björn Felten wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    I'm sure you know this already, but it's a pretty important position.
    So that *ELECTION*

    No. That was also a simple yes/no/abstain vote.

    Yes, it was an election. For U.S. Speaker of the House, since you (as
    usual) try to snip out context to make your point. Yes, it was yes/no/abstain..... which is JUST EXACTLY the same as the recent FTSC election. *EXACTLY* the same thing. Thanks for proving it.

    Would you want e.g. the POTUS election demanding everyone to
    hold up their ballot for everyone to see, before being cast?

    Yes, I would. That way the Libs couldn't cheat. Too bad it's not
    really possible to implement because of the scale.


    ... A day without sunshine is like night.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Carol Shenkenberger on Fri Mar 24 15:07:00 2023
    Carol Shenkenberger wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Did you notice that the majority of the votes here came in over the last couple of days of the allowed time? Perfect indication of strategic
    voting.

    What sucks is when people vote based ONLY on personal dislikes, even if
    a candidate is qualified. That happened in this election too.

    Actually Dan, the later voting is evidence the region was
    actually surveyed for votes.

    Sorry, but that is *NOT* "evidence". It *might* indicate that, but it
    might happen for other reasons, as discussed earlier in the thread (such
    as strategy/influence voting, or even just procrastination by the RC).
    You cannot know for certain that a last minute vote was due to surveying
    the region, and therefore it is NOT evidence/proof of that.

    It's the ones who voted right away,
    that are questionable on surveying their nets. I'll have to go
    back and look, but pretty sure it was over 10 in R13 on the tally
    Mike posted in our R13 sysop echo.

    I would tend to agree with that, but again... not proof of anything.

    As I recall, the surveying of the region by the RC is only a suggestion
    and not a requirement. I do think it should be done.


    ... All the easy problems have been solved.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Ward Dossche on Fri Mar 24 15:10:00 2023
    Ward Dossche wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    b) If I start dealing with your request now I'll get distracted
    by it and it'll take more time than 30 minutes ... like going
    through 10+ years of Fidonews because "I know" it has been
    posted/used at one time...

    Yeah, well this will provide you a good reason to never answer the
    question, which is your real goal here. I don't really care at this
    point.

    This is why I dislike trying to have a conversation with you. That's a bullshit answer and you know it. Don't be an asshole just because you can.

    That's not a bullshit answer, you just asked the wrong question.

    Sure. You're probably the most pedantic/petty person I've ever had the (dis)pleasure of trying to converse with. Get off the echos and go do something useful, as you don't have time to spare on echomail.


    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Michael Dukelsky on Fri Mar 24 15:11:00 2023
    Michael Dukelsky wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    As an aside, can you name another election (of any kind) where a
    person can go back and change their vote after it's been cast?

    Yes, there was such an election. In the latest election to the
    Russian parliament voters in Moscow were allowed to vote online
    several times and only the last vote was counted. A voter could
    vote either offline or online. Unlike with the online votes only
    one offline vote was allowed. Several online votes were allowed
    for a reason. There were reports that the management of some
    enterprises associated with the state required their employees to
    provide proof that they voted for the candidate from the ruling
    party taking a photo of their vote. They were threatened that if
    they didn't, they would be fired. Therefore, it was allowed to
    vote online several times in order to allow the voter to
    eventually vote the way she/he wants.

    Yeah............. well honestly I wasn't really thinking about Russian "elections" when I said that. I think the reason why goes without
    saying...



    ... Diplomacy is saying 'Nice Doggy' until you find a rock.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Mar 24 15:16:00 2023
    Maurice Kinal wrote to Ward Dossche <=-

    Technically most likely he is capable.

    Possibly, but considering he can't get a simple character set
    correctly to spell his name correctly casts a huge shadow over
    your above estimation of his capabilities.

    Absolutely 100%!!!

    I hereby rule him permanently *DISQUALIFIED* for the position.



    ... Diplomacy is saying 'Nice Doggy' until you find a rock.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Ward Dossche on Fri Mar 24 15:19:00 2023
    Ward Dossche wrote to Maurice Kinal <=-

    >WD> Technically most likely he is capable.

    Possibly, but considering he can't get a simple character set correctly
    to spell his name correctly casts a huge shadow over your above
    estimation of his capabilities.

    I have not claimed that being technically capable means he cannot
    be an asshole ...

    And you would certainly know about that!

    It's not mutually exclusive ...

    You have absolutely confirmed that to be true, with every post you make.


    ... The world is full of surprises, very few of which are pleasant.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Dan Clough on Fri Mar 24 20:47:49 2023
    Hey Dan!

    I hereby rule him permanently *DISQUALIFIED* for the position.

    Errrr ... what position? Also, I never knew you had the capabilities - or anyone else for that matter - to make such rulings.

    For the record, if it were within my power(s) to do so, I'd rule that he fix the issue he is obviously having with character sets. Seems to me that over a decade ago it was his misidentification between CP437 and CP1252 or one of those latin based cp12xx dealies. It wouldn't surprise me if he still has the exact same issue which nicely brings us to Ward's discussion on the seperation of being technically capable and being an asshole. I am still waiting on his ruling on that particular issue before I finally find closure and am able to rest peacefully once more in the comfort of my own surroundings.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    o- o- o- -o
    /) /) /) (\
    ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
    ... Muþa gehwylc mete þearf, mæl sceolon tidum gongan.
    Every mouth needs food; meals should come at the right time.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Dan Clough on Sat Mar 25 00:34:22 2023
    Dan Clough -> Björn Felten skrev 2023-03-24 20:59:
    Would you want e.g. the POTUS election demanding everyone to
    hold up their ballot for everyone to see, before being cast?

    Yes, I would. That way the Libs couldn't cheat. Too bad it's not
    really possible to implement because of the scale.

    I see.

    --

    In a democracy, uninformed people are dangerous people.

    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Dan Clough on Sat Mar 25 02:48:12 2023
    Dan,

    As an aside, can you name another election (of any kind) where a person
    can go back and change their vote after it's been cast?

    The motherlode of all elections ... the election of the President of the USA. The electoral votes from the US presidential elections representing the wish of the American people can easily be changed in January and alter the November result.

    By the way, I'm not inventing things, it has already happened.

    Trump tried it too.

    You can start beating around the bush now.

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Mar 24 21:56:00 2023
    Maurice Kinal wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    I hereby rule him permanently *DISQUALIFIED* for the position.

    Errrr ... what position? Also, I never knew you had the
    capabilities - or anyone else for that matter - to make such
    rulings.

    The position of FTSC member, in regards to the comment (by Ward, I
    think), that he was "probably" qualified for that position.

    As for my ruling, I just figured that if an IC/ZC, and an RC who can't
    use a proper character set can post bullshit here that they make up, so
    can I. In fact, I hereby rule that I can permanently do whatever I
    want, just as they can.

    For the record, if it were within my power(s) to do so, I'd rule
    that he fix the issue he is obviously having with character sets.
    Seems to me that over a decade ago it was his misidentification
    between CP437 and CP1252 or one of those latin based cp12xx
    dealies. It wouldn't surprise me if he still has the exact same
    issue which nicely brings us to Ward's discussion on the
    seperation of being technically capable and being an asshole. I
    am still waiting on his ruling on that particular issue before I
    finally find closure and am able to rest peacefully once more in
    the comfort of my own surroundings.

    LOL, agreed. I'm sure he *CAN* fix the character set issue, but
    purposely chooses not to, because...... he's an asshole. That part is certified by official ruling (by me) to be true. ;-)


    ... If it weren't for Edison we'd be using computers by candlelight
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Ward Dossche on Fri Mar 24 21:59:00 2023
    Ward Dossche wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    You can start beating around the bush now.

    Nah, I'm done wasting my time on you. Go prep some gymnasts, or
    something.



    ... Honk if you've never seen an Uzi fired from a car window.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Michael Dukelsky@2:5020/1042 to Dan Clough on Sat Mar 25 11:08:52 2023
    Hello Dan,

    Friday March 24 2023, Dan Clough wrote to Michael Dukelsky:

    As an aside, can you name another election (of any kind) where a
    person can go back and change their vote after it's been cast?

    Yes, there was such an election. In the latest election to the
    Russian parliament voters in Moscow were allowed to vote online
    several times and only the last vote was counted. A voter could
    vote either offline or online. Unlike with the online votes only
    one offline vote was allowed. Several online votes were allowed
    for a reason. There were reports that the management of some
    enterprises associated with the state required their employees to
    provide proof that they voted for the candidate from the ruling
    party taking a photo of their vote. They were threatened that if
    they didn't, they would be fired. Therefore, it was allowed to
    vote online several times in order to allow the voter to
    eventually vote the way she/he wants.

    Yeah............. well honestly I wasn't really thinking about Russian
    "elections" when I said that. I think the reason why goes without
    saying...

    You asked about an election of any kind. So, here you are. :)

    Michael

    ... node (at) f1042 (dot) ru
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230221
    * Origin: Moscow, Russia (2:5020/1042)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Michael Dukelsky on Sat Mar 25 10:30:31 2023
    Michael,

    You asked about an election of any kind. So, here you are. :)

    Now he has two, of any kind, incl his own presidential elections ... :-)

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Dan Clough on Sat Mar 25 10:32:47 2023
    You can start beating around the bush now.

    Nah, I'm done wasting my time on you. Go prep some gymnasts, or
    something.

    CU next year ... In a few days it's going to turn silent here again.

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Terry Roati on Fri Mar 24 07:02:00 2023
    Terry Roati wrote to Dallas Hinton <=-

    I also think all the candidates were qualified, knowlegable and experienced and would have contributed to the FTSC, congratulations to those elected.

    Seconded. Best of luck to them all.


    ... It's a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see if it plays out for 'em...
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Maurice Kinal on Sat Mar 25 09:22:00 2023
    Maurice Kinal wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    to Ward's discussion on the seperation of being technically capable and being an asshole.

    I'm seeing a Venn diagram in my head now.




    ... "The swift blade penetrates the salad."
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Dan Clough on Sat Mar 25 10:26:00 2023
    Dan Clough wrote to Bj÷rn Felten <=-

    Yes, I would. That way the Libs couldn't cheat.

    Yawn.

    ... Accuse the opposition of your crimes, remove the moral high ground.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Alexey Vissarionov@2:5020/545 to Dan Clough on Mon Mar 27 07:44:44 2023
    Good ${greeting_time}, Dan!

    24 Mar 2023 14:59:00, you wrote to Björn Felten:

    Would you want e.g. the POTUS election demanding everyone to
    hold up their ballot for everyone to see, before being cast?
    Yes, I would. That way the Libs couldn't cheat. Too bad it's
    not really possible to implement because of the scale.

    It is possible and even quite easy to implement. But... do you know any politician (in your country, of course) who would likely support that?


    --
    Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
    gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-ccxxix-lxxix-xlii

    ... GPG: 8832FE9FA791F7968AC96E4E909DAC45EF3B1FA8 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
    --- /bin/vi
    * Origin: ::1 (2:5020/545)
  • From Alexey Vissarionov@2:5020/545 to Kurt Weiske on Mon Mar 27 08:05:04 2023
    Good ${greeting_time}, Kurt!

    25 Mar 2023 09:22:00, you wrote to Maurice Kinal:

    to Ward's discussion on the seperation of being technically capable
    and being an asshole.
    I'm seeing a Venn diagram in my head now.

    A vector on a complex plane would be a better visualisation. With technical capabilities axis being imaginary and the assholiness axis being real, of course... :-)


    --
    Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
    gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-ccxxix-lxxix-xlii

    ... that's why I really dislike fools.
    --- /bin/vi
    * Origin: ::1 (2:5020/545)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Alexey Vissarionov on Mon Mar 27 07:37:00 2023
    Alexey Vissarionov wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Would you want e.g. the POTUS election demanding everyone to
    hold up their ballot for everyone to see, before being cast?

    Yes, I would. That way the Libs couldn't cheat. Too bad it's
    not really possible to implement because of the scale.

    It is possible and even quite easy to implement. But... do you
    know any politician (in your country, of course) who would likely
    support that?

    No, probably not. But it's very difficult to know what "our"
    politicians think these days, none of it makes much sense.



    ... A day without sunshine is like night.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Alexey Vissarionov on Thu Apr 6 16:56:45 2023
    Hey Alexey!

    A vector on a complex plane would be a better visualisation. With technical capabilities axis being imaginary and the assholiness
    axis being real, of course

    A well designed fft would make short work of smoothing out any anomalous signals when thinking filtering.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    -o -o -o -o -o o- o- o- o- o- o- o- o- -o o- -o
    (\ (\ (\ (\ (\ /) /) /) /) /) /) /) /) (\ /) (\
    ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Fidonet 4K - Sweet Sixteen Penguins of the Apocalypse.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: One of us @ (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Maurice Kinal on Thu Apr 6 17:15:04 2023
    Hey Maurice!

    Awesome. I could easily get behind this.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    -o -o o- -o
    (\ (\ /) (\
    ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
    ... Seo sceal in eagan, snyttro in breostum.
    The eye must have a pupil, the heart wisdom.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Maurice Kinal on Thu Apr 6 17:37:29 2023
    Hey Maurice!

    Awesome.

    Now that we have confirmation let us now go for the gold. Live long and prosper.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    o- -o -o o- -o o- -o -o o- o- o- o- o- o- o- -o /) (\ (\ /) (\ /) (\ (\ /) /) /) /) /) /) /) (\ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Fidonet 4K - Sweet Sixteen Penguins of the Apocalypse.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: One of us @ (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Maurice Kinal on Thu Apr 6 18:02:30 2023
    Hey Maurice!

    Live long and prosper.

    As always I will do my best.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    o- -o o- -o
    /) (\ /) (\
    ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
    ... Eall þæt mon untidlice onginþ, næfþ hit no æltæþne ende.
    Anything begun at the wrong time will never have a good end.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)