but
what happened to them? Well, gee, as it turns out: they
stayed and now they see themselves as the protectors of the
faith.
But it *IS* open to everyone. We are just an SSH/telnet client away. No one is barred, no one turned away.
newspaper.. most don't do that either, and you can see that in the
poor
circulation newspapers have these days.
newspaper.. most don't do that either, and you can see that in the
poor circulation newspapers have these days.
I think that's because news is readily available on the internet for
free and newspapers can't compete, rather than any reading impairment the youth of today may have.
I'd speculate on the quality of newspaper content and the relationship with rupert murdoch, but that might be too political.
I'm all for gatekeeperism. Nothing is improved when it is op the masses.
Nothing is improved when it's open to no one either.
Andrew
But it *IS* open to everyone. We are just an SSH/telnet client away. No one is barred, no one turned away.
We are probably more open than Social Media, which is more oppressive abuses its users.
People either don't know, or don't care. They should know, and they should care.
The gatekeeping is those who want to make this into something else should, something which loses the advantages and style we have, shoul be politely told that this is what it is. It's not a service with ea to use apps and tracking, and its not by default searchable and track by third party companies.
That's not what "gatekeeperism" means.
I don't see the controversy in that.
This is arguing a strawman: you've got a very different
definition of "gatekeeperism" than what most other people
have, and you're arguing for _your_ definition. But that
is not what the people you are discussing the matter with
mean.
Linux is not niche. It is actually huge, and _mostly_ backed
by very large corporations that depend on it. Linux, in fact,
has taken over the world; from Android phones and tablets to
home routers, to every supercomputer on the top-500 list, it's
literally everywhere. Hell, I saw it booting on an informational
monitor in the Frankfurt airport last month. Schoolchildren
are given chromebooks running Linux.
Some like to say the sort of stuff that you do above, but they're
not the ones doing the work. Most of those are at Intel, Amazon, Facebook, IBM, or Google.
Google got BIG, and now it sucks as a search engine. It ruined the W
Nope.
Social media got BIG and ruined the social aspect of the Web. Once things get big, they lose what they were, and become bad. The popularity means nothing if it doesn't do good.
The web didn't have much of a social aspect before social media.
I was there and saw it develop from a few weird hyperlink pages
to what it is today. People looked elsewhere for socialization
before sixdegrees.com, friendster, and then blogs, myspace and
facebook. USENET and IRC were the two big ones.
Your argument is essentially that BBSes are special because
they are not important enough for the crass commercialization
of Facebook and Twitter, IG and Tiktok. Ok. But consider
that they were orders of magnitude more popular 25 years ago;
now they aren't. Why is that? First, because they didn't
give people what they wanted, and second, because you had
"big personalities" being jerks _because they could_. At the
time, there was no real competition, so people could appoint
themselves lord high poobah of their calling region and if
you didn't like it, tough: you were at their mercy. The
much more sophisticated and interesting Internet thankfully
freed people from the torment of these petty tyrants, but
what happened to them? Well, gee, as it turns out: they
stayed and now they see themselves as the protectors of the
faith.
What bunkum. No one wants to turn the little BBS paradise
into Facebook; don't worry. No one wants to exploit the
population of BBS users. But that doesn't mean that they
want to kowtow to the gatekeepers, either.
Well that makes sense, isn't one of the prime reasons for "your" BBS to try and attract new users? So from the user end of things it wants to
be as open as possible.
On the other hand there are barriers. Telnet clients are in decline,
you have go and look for a client that is generally deprecated and insecure. ssh is probably slightly more straight forward, so long as you can find a bbs and a port to support it. I'd also hazzard a guess that most gen-Ys and millenials aren't going to have the attention span to
sit and read all this stuff. No pretty pictures, no video... its like going backwards to grab a newspaper.. most don't do that either, and you can see that in the poor circulation newspapers have these days.
Spec
I've never seen a Linux desktop at work, and few people that I know who have a computer uses it.
My BBS is meant for a particular community, and the idea is to solve a
Similarly, I think some people if they saw a cool BBS would be
Google got BIG, and now it sucks as a search engine. It ruined the
W
Nope.
I think that it has. SEO has changed the web. We went
from a World Wide Web to masses of generated half-content,
much if which appears AI generated, purely to game the
system to create ads. It's harder to find good information
than it used to be, and there is a preponderance of utter
garbage sites that rank at the top of Google's search,
because Google's model encouraged and rewarded the creation
of garbage.
And don't get me started on Gmail...
[...] I was on Facebook back in 2006 and what Social Media
now has grown into something too large, something that has
fundamentally shaped human behaviour, our expectations.
These platformarchs control our experience and mediate
between people. Some US Californian scumbag can now censor
and manipulate billions of people world wide. Ugh.
My BBS is meant for a particular community, and the idea
is to solve a
So you've got a "gated" system for a dieing breed thats
enclosed to keep the dinosaurs safe.
Similarly, I think some people if they saw a cool BBS
would be
enchanted my the novelty for 10 minutes and disappear.
Even some PC gaming companies like Steam are supporting Linux these days.
Google got BIG, and now it sucks as a search engine. It ruined the WNope.
that they were orders of magnitude more popular 25 years ago;
now they aren't. Why is that? First, because they didn't
give people what they wanted, and second, because you had
"big personalities" being jerks _because they could_. At the
What bunkum. No one wants to turn the little BBS paradise
into Facebook; don't worry.
That being said, I'm quite interested in the PTT Bulletin Board Syste Taiwan, as it has 1.5 million registered users, with peak usage numbeWhy not login and try it?
I'm of the belief that most "youth" are severely impaired when it comes to reading. They're to busy busting out the slang, and for the most part comprehension skills seem to have fallen through the floor. Which is probably also an indictment of the teaching system.
Even some PC gaming companies like Steam are supporting Linux these
days.
If you take a look a the Steam Deck, it's literaly just a Linux desktop with Proton running. Not even special hardware per-se. lscpu and lshw show pretty generic components.
comprehension skills seem to have fallen through the floor. Which is probably also an indictment of the teaching system.
Kids these days...
But, seriously, my issue with this analysis is more that I doubt the intelligence of youth in the 90s or 80s.
Linux is not niche. It is actually huge, and _mostly_ backed
by very large corporations that depend on it. Linux, in fact,
has taken over the world; from Android phones and tablets to
home routers, to every supercomputer on the top-500 list, it's literally everywhere. Hell, I saw it booting on an informational monitor in the Frankfurt airport last month. Schoolchildren
are given chromebooks running Linux.
Some like to say the sort of stuff that you do above, but they're
not the ones doing the work. Most of those are at Intel, Amazon, Facebook, IBM, or Google.
I've never seen a Linux desktop at work, and few people that I know who have a computer uses it.
TECHNICALLY, people using Android are using
the Linux kernel, but that is so vastly different to what we consider to be a Linux desktop that the term "Linux user" has little meaning there.
Most of these people would be unaware they are using Linux.
Google got BIG, and now it sucks as a search engine. It ruinedNope.
I kinda think that Google is "ruining the web" with various choices
being made with Manifest v3, which is a problem because of Chromium controlling almost all of the browser market.
But Google the search engine... Well, even there, if they're really
awful, it's probably not _too_ hard to make a palatable option. As it
is, I use DuckDuckGo (and thus Bing), though mostly because I try to
keep my usage varied.
I tend to figure one could stop there. People went on the internet
because it allowed you to do a lot of new and interesting things, including with graphics, and it didn't depend on what was available in your local calling area.
...I think I get your point, but with how people are on the internet...
Well, even just thinking about the little Napoleons on Wikipedia...
But more broadly than that, there tends to be a lot of discussion about what various sites on the internet allow or do not allow.
Maybe less controlled by a single individual, though.
That being said, I'm quite interested in the PTT Bulletin Board Taiwan, as it has 1.5 million registered users, with peak usageWhy not login and try it?
...wouldn't it be in Chinese?
I don't know they were a lot smarter... but I'm specificially looking at english skills rather than IQ.. If I had to hazzard it with no real data, english reading and comprehension has been in decline since the mid to late 70s and its more recently fallen off a precipice...
*hazard
;) couldn't help myself considering the subject matter
Search is a hard problem and requires vast capital resources to
address in a meaningful way. Most of the web is still outside of the walled gardens of Facebook et al, and indexing it is not easy, let
alone making the search corpus available to people.
In some sense, Google benefited enormously because, when it started
out, the web was much, much smaller and so it could grow _with_
the web. Not so much these days.
I've never seen a Linux desktop at work, and few people that I know w have a computer uses it.
I used to work at a small company where we all had Linux on our PCs and used it for our software development work. It was a total Linux shop. And that was back in 2003-2007. And currently, where I work now, I've worked on a couple projects that have involved Linux installed on a Raspberry Pi system running a web interface for some software.
Even some PC gaming companies like Steam are supporting Linux these days.
Nightfox
So you've got a "gated" system for a dieing breed thats enclosed to keep the dinosaurs safe.
No suggestion that you'd want FacePlant or other social media users generally, that's merely pointing out that they won't be using your BBS unless they're already BBS users. The whole system doesn't fit their modus operandi.
But google has become a verb. "I'll google it!". There is no equivalent for BBSing. "I'll BBS-it" ..don't sound right. :D
.: google wins.
The DO have a fine spam-filter function.
But you can ignore the ads.
Facebook seems to be a simple feature-rich common tool that CAN
help people stay in touch. Photos, video-chat, voice-chat,
video/sound messages, etc.
I'm currently configuring a Fire HD for a senior relative of
mine who is basically housebound, coping with arthritis and
rarely gets outside contact except by traditional phone. She
misses the interactions of friends, their photos, etc. I'm
hoping that the Fire HD + Facebook will give her that
opportinity to access what people are normally sharing via
their phones. A "bbs" experience wouldn't work.
This is anecdotal evidence, and is a common logical fallacy.
Just because _you_ haven't seen a thing doesn't mean that that
thing isn't common.
In _my_ professional career, it's rare to see someone using,
say, a Windows desktop. That doesn't mean that Windows isn't
wildly popular as a desktop OS.
And moreover, when we're talking about Linux, we're talking
about Linux, which encompasses a lot more than just someone's
idea of a desktop system.
TECHNICALLY, people using Android are using
the Linux kernel, but that is so vastly different to what we consider be a Linux desktop that the term "Linux user" has little meaning ther
"We" who, precisely?
I don't know they were a lot smarter... but I'm specificially looking
at english skills rather than IQ.. If I had to hazzard it with no
real data, english reading and comprehension has been in decline
since the mid to late 70s and its more recently fallen off a
precipice...
*** Quoting Spectre from a message to Adept ***
real data, english reading and comprehension has been in
decline since the mid to late 70s and its more recently
fallen off a precipice...
One only needs to look at the quality of song lyrics for
proof of that. I'm afraid before too long we'll have some
"#1 Hit" that is a person repeating the same word over &
over.
I'm at times left to wonder, how much data Google Search actually maintains about the individuals using it. I've found frequently if I swap search engines I cannot get anything remotely like the information I'm looking for while getting all sorts of extraneous junk. While if I go back to the Googl Empire I'll generally get a better result. Usually I'm not looking for anything thats on any other major service like FacePalm or similar.
Search is a hard problem and requires vast capital resources to address in a meaningful way. Most of the web is still outside of the walled gardens of Facebook et al, and indexing it is not easy, let alone making the search corpus available to people.
I'm at times left to wonder, how much data Google Search actually maintains about the individuals using it. I've found frequently if I
swap search engines I cannot get anything remotely like the information I'm looking for while getting all sorts of extraneous junk. While if I
go back to the Google Empire I'll generally get a better result.
Usually I'm not looking for anything thats on any other major service
like FacePalm or similar.
In some sense, Google benefited enormously because, when it started out, the web was much, much smaller and so it could grow _with_
the web. Not so much these days.
They were also able to keep moving with the times... where a lot of
others fell by the wayside. Way back when I used to prefer WebCrawler, with Alta Vista as a backup position, but it got to the point you
couldn't get anything reasonable out of them.
I've worked for produces of medicinal products, so a different industry.
I would imagine that software developers may be more likely to use Linux than say, Pfizer. I did see Linux once on an Internet Kiosk computer in
a backpackers in Germany, and have maybe seen it once or twice
elsewhere, but quite rare.
The reason it was 'gated' was because it was suggested to have a private online space where we could engage in forums and discussions privately without having to worry about 1) Data harvesting 2) Miscreants and 3) Having the platform pulled from under us. This wasn't a "we've got something to hide" kind of thing, it was more a desire to bring back Usenet and the old style discussion forums.
It could be done with a Telegram group, but Telegram has its limitations.
Google also has high requirements for accepting e-mails from a server. So if you set up your own e-mail server, gmail will likely not accept your outbound e-mails. We may end up in a situation where only the major
Rianna, "Work, work, work..."
I don t know. For general search, Bing/Duckduckgo are quite good. Results don t get better if I switch to Startpage/Google.
In _my_ professional career, it's rare to see someone using,
say, a Windows desktop. That doesn't mean that Windows isn't
wildly popular as a desktop OS.
Are you a software developer of some description by any chance? Most people in the world are not actually software developers.
I know I'm not the person you were replying to, but I am a softare developer, and I do see a lot of software developers using Windows. But
I'm at times left to wonder, how much data Google Search actually maint about the individuals using it. I've found frequently if I swap search engines I cannot get anything remotely like the information I'm looking while getting all sorts of extraneous junk. While if I go back to the Empire I'll generally get a better result. Usually I'm not looking for anything thats on any other major service like FacePalm or similar.
I don t know. For general search, Bing/Duckduckgo are quite good.
Results don t get better if I switch to Startpage/Google.
--
I've worked for produces of medicinal products, so a different indust I would imagine that software developers may be more likely to use Li than say, Pfizer. I did see Linux once on an Internet Kiosk computer a backpackers in Germany, and have maybe seen it once or twice elsewhere, but quite rare.
I promise you Pfizer is running Linux all over the place.
I can't see anyone doing data harvesting from BBS' its just such a minority it'd have no value other than interest. You'll always get some miscreants, doesn't to much matter what platform it is, its just a
matter of dealing with them as they arise. If usenet was resurrectable it'd still be a popular platform. Like the BBS end of things its a mere shadow of itself and in continued decline. You're looking for other dinosaurs to join reserve without looking at the bigger picture, without "new blood" they'll die out. You'll eventually have to put up with a
level of openess to stay alive.
Shrug, I know nothing about telegram. Until last week I'd never heard of it. However it already implies your dinosaur collection is already being diluted by other attractions.
Google also has high requirements for accepting e-mails from a server if you set up your own e-mail server, gmail will likely not accept yo outbound e-mails. We may end up in a situation where only the major
Never seen that. IME GMAIL has always been one of the more accepting servers. In fact even being able to use it as a relay to other servers that are persnickety about it.
I know I'm not the person you were replying to, but I am a softare developer, and I do see a lot of software developers using Windows. But I've also seen some software developers using Linux, and some prefer
Mac. It also seems to depend what people are working on - It seems
there are lot of web developers who seem to gravitate toward Mac for
some reason. I think there are also perfectly good web development software tools for Windows and Linux.
This is anecdotal evidence, and is a common logical fallacy.
Just because _you_ haven't seen a thing doesn't mean that that
thing isn't common.
In _my_ professional career, it's rare to see someone using,
say, a Windows desktop. That doesn't mean that Windows isn't
wildly popular as a desktop OS.
And moreover, when we're talking about Linux, we're talking
about Linux, which encompasses a lot more than just someone's
idea of a desktop system.
Are you a software developer of some description by any chance? Most people in the world are not actually software developers.
TECHNICALLY, people using Android are using
the Linux kernel, but that is so vastly different to what we con be a Linux desktop that the term "Linux user" has little meaning
"We" who, precisely?
When people say they use Linux, they mean a computer. When people use Android, they say they use Android. Very few Android users say they are Linux users.
We know this, because there are "Linux Phones" which are called such, despite the fact that Android phones have a Linux kernel. The language people use says it all. A "Linux system" is one which has not only a Linux kernel, but userspace tools typical of a Linux install.
I've worked for produces of medicinal products, so a different i I would imagine that software developers may be more likely to u than say, Pfizer. I did see Linux once on an Internet Kiosk com a backpackers in Germany, and have maybe seen it once or twice elsewhere, but quite rare.
I promise you Pfizer is running Linux all over the place.
Server or desktop? Server I believe. Didn't see desktops with it, but that was in Australia.
I know I'm not the person you were replying to, but I am a softare
developer, and I do see a lot of software developers using Windows.
But
Conversely, I'm also a software developer, and I have seen very few devs use Windows, except to test building things for Windows clients. I guess it varies *shrug*
I am a web developer, and I use a Mac. It's the system I had to use at my first job, and I've just stuck with it.
If you go to your Google account, you can download everything
they know about you and all of your data that they're holding
onto via the "Takeout" service (or whatever they're calling it
these days). I can say that user data is encrypted at rest
and that if you delete it, it is fully purged from Google's
servers (including backups) in something like 30 days.
https://cfenollosa.com/blog/after-self-hosting-my-email-for-twenty-three-y ears- i-have-thrown-in-the-towel-the-oligopoly-has-won.html
Don't know how much truth there is in this,
Here are two good web search engines to try.
https://wiby.me
This focuses on sites with simpler design. You won't get the Javascript laden, slo
Another is
https://search.marginalia.nu/
Which again focuses on non-commercial content and shows you stuff you may not have
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
it. However it already implies your dinosaur collection is already being
Re: Re: Community
By: tenser to Spectre on Tue Oct 04 2022 09:12 am
If you go to your Google account, you can download everything
they know about you and all of your data that they're holding
onto via the "Takeout" service (or whatever they're calling it
these days). I can say that user data is encrypted at rest
and that if you delete it, it is fully purged from Google's
servers (including backups) in something like 30 days.
Let me open the tin-foil hat store.
You may download everything they are willing to confess they have about you via that
method. You have to trust they are not generating more information
about you via
interpolation.
Well, perhaps things have changed since I left, but
access to user data and use thereof was incredibly
strictly controlled, audited, and logged. Generally,
what Google is telling people about what they do with
your data and data about you is what they're doing.
At least, that was the case when I worked there (I
left for a startup about a year and a half ago). Oh,
and if someone violated user access rules? First off,
that was very difficult because the data is encrypted
at rest (e.g., on storage) but if you somehow figured
out how to access it, you were looking at being fired
for cause immediately, if not a referral for a criminal
complaint. Google does not mess around when it comes
to user data.
https://cfenollosa.com/blog/after-self-hosting-my-email-for-twenty-three-y ars- i-have-thrown-in-the-towel-the-oligopoly-has-won.html
Don't know how much truth there is in this,
What do you usually see software developers use?
One of the programming languages I've used for some projects is C#,
which I guess tends to naturally falls with Windows, since C#
development would often be done with Visual Studio in Windows. You can develop in many other languages in Windows too, so it just tends to be
the system I usually use (though I've used Linux for development
sometimes too).
I haven't read that article, but someone where I work was recently
saying it's very hard to have a self-hosted email service now because
your email address will likely end up on spam lists that other email services use, so a self-hosted email address is likely to end up marked
as spam.
Well, perhaps things have changed since I left, but
access to user data and use thereof was incredibly
strictly controlled, audited, and logged. Generally,
I am, but that rather misses the point. You asserted
that Linux is "niche" and that this is good because it
prevents large corporations from defining it's direction.
Perhaps you meant to say, "Linux on the desktop, as used
by me with my preferred distro, is uncommon in my line of
work and among my peers." That statement may well be
true, but the original argument, that Linux is "niche"
as a prima facie statement is simply incorrect. Again,
Linux is used everywhere, and again, most Linux development
is done at large corporations. If someone wants to get
a major feature pushed, it almost has to be done with
corporate sponsorship. This isn't really a debatable
statement, either; plenty of evidence is readily available,
including the history in the Linux git repository. Sorted
by domain, the top twenty contributors come mostly from
commercial organizations. Granted, the #1 _is_ "gmail",
but a) many Linux developers contribute using their personal
email address, and b) the next three entries combined are
nearly double the total number of gmail-using contributors.
So this idea that Linux is sort of the "people's OS" and a
quirky obscure niche thing is just not true.
So, first of all, this is a strawman in the context of the original discussion. Second of all, lots of people _do_ understand that when
they run an Android device (which, by the way, can be installed on
a desktop; lots of ARM-based devices run Android in that configuration) they're using Linux, and third of all, so what? Whether someone
realizes that they're using Linux or not (like the millions of
school kids using chromebooks) that doesn't mean that Linux is niche.
That is entirely subjective, but is also irrelevant to the original
point. Let's focus on that; I'll say it again: Linux is not
"niche" by any reasonable definition (it runs everywhere; the
average person at this point _probably_ has multiple devices
running Linux in their home whether they realize it or not) and
it is mostly developed by large corporations.
Server-side, almost certainly, but also for supercomputing. Pharma
is a consumer of compute-cycles, and I doubt they're renting capacity
from the national labs or other major public supercomputing sites.
For desktop use, I imagine it depends on job function.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
If you go to your Google account, you can download everything
they know about you and all of your data that they're holding
onto via the "Takeout" service (or whatever they're calling it
these days). I can say that user data is encrypted at rest
and that if you delete it, it is fully purged from Google's
servers (including backups) in something like 30 days.
Let me open the tin-foil hat store.
You may download everything they are willing to confess they have about you via that
method. You have to trust they are not generating more information
about you via
interpolation.
https://cfenollosa.com/blog/after-self-hosting-my-email-for-twenty-th ears- i-have-thrown-in-the-towel-the-oligopoly-has-won.html
Don't know how much truth there is in this,
I haven't read that article, but someone where I work was recently
saying it's very hard to have a self-hosted email service now because
your email address will likely end up on spam lists that other email services use, so a self-hosted email address is likely to end up marked
as spam.
Here are two good web search engines to try.
https://wiby.me
This focuses on sites with simpler design. You won't get the Javascrip laden, slo
Another is
https://search.marginalia.nu/
Which again focuses on non-commercial content and shows you stuff you m not have
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
Thanks for the links. Do they use their own searching indexes? BY your description, it
sounds like so. Gigablast is the only search engine with open source code published
and which actually operates its own index in full, but results are kind
of meh (and
the last version of their engine at github leaves something to be
desired)
--
it. However it already implies your dinosaur collection is already being
Citadel is pretty much well maintained. Current version has strict separation between
the front end and the back end, which is nice. More information at the ADMIN Magazine
(issue number I have forgotten, sadly)
--
It's /possible/ to host your own email server and get through Google's filters, but it ain't easy and I have no idea how long it would persist in a trusted mode. Email is really a fixed fight at this point. Which sucks. :(
Yeah, C# development would probably rely on a Windows box for sure. My last company focused on Java, js, and some typical web dev stuff. My current company does python, c++, and typical web dev stuff. All of this can be easily accomplished on a Mac while also providing a platform that is reliable and can do all the other things any professional would need. I'm not advocating for Macs, just acknowledging that for me and a great deal of people I have seen professionally that Macs tend to be the choice people make.
It's /possible/ to host your own email server and get through Google's filters, but it ain't easy and I have no idea how long it would persist in a trusted mode. Email is really a fixed fight at this point. Which sucks.
BTW does anybody have a nice tutorial for making a good tin foil hat?
Well, perhaps things have changed since I left, but
access to user data and use thereof was incredibly
strictly controlled, audited, and logged. Generally,
Which, contrary to popular fashionable belief these days, is also the
case at Meta (aka Facebook).
Thanks for the links. Do they use their own searching indexes? BY your description, it
sounds like so. Gigablast is the only search engine with open source co published
and which actually operates its own index in full, but results are kind of meh (and
the last version of their engine at github leaves something to be desired)
--
I believe they do. I do not view this as definitive search engines, just as d such.
The ONLY Linux desktop I ever saw at a workplace was the one I had when I worked in IT support, because I chose to install it. I've worked at many companies, and audited and visited many others.
On 04 Oct 2022 at 04:53p, Arelor pondered and said...
BTW does anybody have a nice tutorial for making a good tin foil hat?
I hear there are some good tutorials on youtube, but that's
owned by Google.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
Perhaps you meant to say, "Linux on the desktop, as used
by me with my preferred distro, is uncommon in my line of
work and among my peers." That statement may well be
true, but the original argument, that Linux is "niche"
as a prima facie statement is simply incorrect. Again,
Linux is used everywhere, and again, most Linux development
is done at large corporations. If someone wants to get
a major feature pushed, it almost has to be done with
corporate sponsorship. This isn't really a debatable
statement, either; plenty of evidence is readily available,
including the history in the Linux git repository. Sorted
by domain, the top twenty contributors come mostly from
commercial organizations. Granted, the #1 _is_ "gmail",
but a) many Linux developers contribute using their personal
email address, and b) the next three entries combined are
nearly double the total number of gmail-using contributors.
So this idea that Linux is sort of the "people's OS" and a
quirky obscure niche thing is just not true.
Take random people off the street and ask them if they've used Windows, MacOS or Linux, and tell me the result. Ask them what they use at home, what they know.
Linux won't come up all that often.
So, first of all, this is a strawman in the context of the original discussion. Second of all, lots of people _do_ understand that when they run an Android device (which, by the way, can be installed on
a desktop; lots of ARM-based devices run Android in that configuratio they're using Linux, and third of all, so what? Whether someone realizes that they're using Linux or not (like the millions of
school kids using chromebooks) that doesn't mean that Linux is niche.
Ask those people off the street if they know what kernel Android uses.
If you get more then 20% saying "Linux" I'll eat my underpants. I'll
make it easier, you only have to ask the question to those who have an android phone.
That is entirely subjective, but is also irrelevant to the original point. Let's focus on that; I'll say it again: Linux is not
"niche" by any reasonable definition (it runs everywhere; the
average person at this point _probably_ has multiple devices
running Linux in their home whether they realize it or not) and
it is mostly developed by large corporations.
This is now just wasting my time. Do the poll, tell me the results.
Far more people use Linux than they think. My argument was based on what people chose to use for their computing.
I am a Linux user, and Linux is still niche. It hasn't taken over
the world, and shouldn't. The very fact that Linux is "niche" is
what makes it useful. IT caters to those who are seeking its reconfigurability, its freedom, its power. When something becomes
BIG, you have to drop catering to all those people who built it
in the first place.
You're either being unnecessarily pedantic, deliberately taking my argument in bad faith, or genuinely not understanding it.
Server-side, almost certainly, but also for supercomputing. Pharma is a consumer of compute-cycles, and I doubt they're renting capacity from the national labs or other major public supercomputing sites.
For desktop use, I imagine it depends on job function.
The ONLY Linux desktop I ever saw at a workplace was the one I had when I worked in IT support, because I chose to install it. I've worked at many companies, and audited and visited many others.
Re: Re: Community
By: tenser to Arelor on Thu Oct 06 2022 06:48 am
On 04 Oct 2022 at 04:53p, Arelor pondered and said...
BTW does anybody have a nice tutorial for making a good tin foil h
I hear there are some good tutorials on youtube, but that's
owned by Google.
I expect those tutorials to be malformed as to get people to build defective tin fol hats, then.
Everyone wants to talk about how Google, Meta, Amazon
etc are so gangsta, but no one wants to talk about SOX
or auditors.
Re: Re: Community
By: tenser to esc on Thu Oct 06 2022 06:50 am
Everyone wants to talk about how Google, Meta, Amazon
etc are so gangsta, but no one wants to talk about SOX
or auditors.
Who/what is SOX? And what do you mean by auditors?
My previous job was pure Linux desktops across the dev space. Managers
et al., love their Macs (and a few Windows). Current gig is def more
of a Windows shop traditionally, but with cloud movement most of us
are either in Linux directly or OS X.
Yeah, you can use Apple for a lot of different types of development. It seems our experiences are a little different though, as most of the software developers I've seen use a Windows PC. I have seen some developers use a Mac, but not as many as those using a Windows PC.
BTW does anybody have a nice tutorial for making a good tin foil hat?
I hear there are some good tutorials on youtube, but that's owned
by Google.
gangsta, but no one wants to talk about SOX or auditors.
The ONLY Linux desktop I ever saw at a workplace was the one I had wh worked in IT support, because I chose to install it. I've worked at companies, and audited and visited many others.
My previous job was pure Linux desktops across the dev space. Managers
et al., love their Macs (and a few Windows). Current gig is def more of
a Windows shop traditionally, but with cloud movement most of us are either in Linux directly or OS X.
As far as the general public, it's "cool" to use Mac, many offices and
the like are on Windows (AD, Exchange, blah blah just takes the cake here), all their services are probably running Linux for the most part, while their phones are Android (Linux) or iPhone (still has a huge BSD base), and their hardware appliances often BSD based. ...but most have zero idea about any of it.
I know quite a few people that have zero understanding of any of this
also running Linux desktops. Because again a) they don't know the difference, and b) it just works for what they want -- web browsing, email, and viewing documents.
So it's like this. You've repeatedly made an assertion.
That assertion has been shown to be false. When presented
with falsifying evidence, you move the goalposts, but that
doesn't make your assertion any less false.
Server-side, almost certainly, but also for supercomputing. Pha is a consumer of compute-cycles, and I doubt they're renting cap from the national labs or other major public supercomputing site
For desktop use, I imagine it depends on job function.
The ONLY Linux desktop I ever saw at a workplace was the one I had wh worked in IT support, because I chose to install it. I've worked at companies, and audited and visited many others.
More argument from anecdote. This is a well-known logical
fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_anecdote
More generally, I suspect your experience is a lot more
limited than you believe it to be.
I'm going to end this now as its not worth my time trying to explain what everyone else understands easily.
I installed Linux for my wife, but to her its just a web browser with files on the desktop and a few games. She doesn't care what she's using, because she's not really "using" the operating system as such. Just the Web Browser. Sure, the Operating System is running and technically she is using it, but she doesn't use the unique features of it, at all. It's like having a convertible and not even being aware you can put the top down.
boraxman wrote to Spectre <=-
https://cfenollosa.com/blog/after-self-hosting-my-email-for-twenty-three -years-
i-have-thrown-in-the-towel-the-oligopoly-has-won.html
Don't know how much truth there is in this,
Nightfox wrote to esc <=-
What do you usually see software developers use?
Nightfox wrote to unixl0rd <=-
Sometimes you don't have a choice though. I've worked for several companies that would just give you a Windows laptop and didn't have a choice otherwise.
Arelor wrote to tenser <=-
You may download everything they are willing to confess they have about you via that method. You have to trust they are not generating more information about you via interpolation.
esc wrote to Nightfox <=-
It's /possible/ to host your own email server and get through Google's filters, but it ain't easy and I have no idea how long it would persist
in a trusted mode. Email is really a fixed fight at this point. Which sucks. :(
boraxman wrote to tenser <=-
The ONLY Linux desktop I ever saw at a workplace was the one I had when
I worked in IT support, because I chose to install it. I've worked at many companies, and audited and visited many others.
More argument from anecdote. This is a well-known logical
fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_anecdote
You're argumentation style is really nothing but trying to find technicalities to nit-pick on, while militantly trying to avoid understanding what is being meant.
https://cfenollosa.com/blog/after-self-hosting-my-email-for-twenty-th -years-
i-have-thrown-in-the-towel-the-oligopoly-has-won.html
If that's the article I think it is, there's a lot of truth in it. I ran my own mail server for about 5 years back in the 2000s, and it was manageable. Trying to send mail from an ISP's IP block or a VPS
nowadays is a pain, and getting your IPs off of blacklists is extremely difficult.
On 09-25-22 12:33, Ogg wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I find that the new UKRNEWS and its headlines is pretty good
with quick links to the full articles.
The nice thing about Windows 10 is that you easily run unix software by installing LSW. It's basically Ubuntu running alongside Windows. My
Sometimes you don't have a choice though. I've worked for several
companies that would just give you a Windows laptop and didn't have
a choice otherwise.
If I had $10 for every time I had a developer take a corporate-managed Windows laptop and install Linux/OpenBSD/Plan9/whatever on it, I wouldn't have to work with developers who re-image corporate laptops any more.
I find that the new UKRNEWS and its headlines is pretty good
with quick links to the full articles.
Yuk, I'm not keen on that sort of content, because the process of
following links is actually quite tedious. :(
I installed Linux for my wife, but to her its just a web browser with files on the desktop and a few games. She doesn't care what she's us because she's not really "using" the operating system as such. Just Web Browser. Sure, the Operating System is running and technically sh using it, but she doesn't use the unique features of it, at all. It' like having a convertible and not even being aware you can put the to down.
Yep, I have my mother running Linux. It saves her from malware and the like, and just like your wife, she uses it for what she wants and
doesn't notice the difference. I even gave her a "Windows-like" desktop
so the 'start' button, apps, etc. are familiar. Never looked back.
https://cfenollosa.com/blog/after-self-hosting-my-email-for-twenty-th -years-
i-have-thrown-in-the-towel-the-oligopoly-has-won.html
Don't know how much truth there is in this,
If that's the article I think it is, there's a lot of truth in it. I ran my own mail server for about 5 years back in the 2000s, and it was manageable. Trying to send mail from an ISP's IP block or a VPS
nowadays is a pain, and getting your IPs off of blacklists is extremely difficult.
I've resorted to using a web host to forward mail to gmail. It's not the same as having mail hosted locally and running my own SPAM filters and procmail.
It's /possible/ to host your own email server and get through Google' filters, but it ain't easy and I have no idea how long it would persi in a trusted mode. Email is really a fixed fight at this point. Which sucks. :(
Yeah, when you're essentially Google's competition by running your own email server (and they can't serve ads or index your mail) they have no inclination to make getting off of their block lists easy.
I have a VPS hosting a test domain of mine; I should set up DMARC and
DKIM on it and see how it goes.
You're argumentation style is really nothing but trying to find technicalities to nit-pick on, while militantly trying to avoid understanding what is being meant.
Either saying Linux *is* or *is not* niche is argument-from-anecdote. Absent statistics gathered in a way everyone is happy with, there's no index to verify either claim.
We did used to have SunOS/Solaris + CDE, but it was for specific enterprise applications which, at the time, only ran on that platform. That was on the desk in the pizza box form factor, under monitors, with
a KVM switch we used to switch to the Windows boxes under our desks, for e-mail and everything else.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/218089/global-market-share-of-windows-
I've never seen a survey like this which indicated there was much use of desktop Linux. Be absolutely happy to take a look at one if someone has one.
If that's the article I think it is, there's a lot of truth in it. I my own mail server for about 5 years back in the 2000s, and it was manageable. Trying to send mail from an ISP's IP block or a VPS nowadays is a pain, and getting your IPs off of blacklists is extrem difficult.
Somewhere - it might have been reddit - people were tearing into this
guy for being technically incompetent, because, well, that is how
certain kinds of technical people are.
What should be accounted for is the *sheer joylessness* of hosting a server of any sort, if you have anything like a limited number of hours
in the day *and* you don't particularly get a charge out of running one.
I like running web servers, but I know a lot of people don't. I expect there are people who like running e-mail servers. I sure don't. There's no hobbyist pleasure in that for me, personally.
When I ran my own - it was Postfix - they kept releasing updates which broke my configuration files, which are byzantine and annoying to fix.
And then there's the spam issue.
E-mail, to me, is mundane. If I could do my own mail service with
minimal hassle, I'd do it. But it wasn't minimal hassle. And the
benefits of doing it myself were minimal anyway.
I think the guy who wrote that article had his limits, too. It's not
that it can't be done, it's that there are a limited number of hours in the day and is doing that a good use of your time? Maybe, if you're
into it. How many people are into it?
What I have found works for me is to own my own domains, and get professional mail hosts to just provide service for them (this is borderline trivial - they want you to put a bunch of DNS records in proving you own the domain, then they take care of the rest).
If I become unhappy with a service or they turn out to be evil or something, I can just move the address to a competitor, taking the
domain with me and preserving the accounts.
More argument from anecdote. This is a well-known logical fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_anecdote
You're argumentation style is really nothing but trying to find technicalities to nit-pick on, while militantly trying to avoid understanding what is being meant.
Either saying Linux *is* or *is not* niche is argument-from-anecdote. Absent statistics gathered in a way everyone is happy with, there's no index to verify either claim.
I've never seen a survey like this which indicated there was much use of desktop Linux. Be absolutely happy to take a look at one if someone has one.
Either saying Linux *is* or *is not* niche is argument-from-anecdote. Absent statistics gathered in a way everyone is happy with, there's n index to verify either claim.
You are applying the "argument-from-anedote" logical fallacy
erroneously. I don't know when this idea that observation=anectode=unreliable came from, but I see it all the time and its wrong.
If someone says "I saw the sun rise in the East" and others report the same, is that just anectodal evidence, anecdata to be just dismissed?
No, its an observation. And its a testable one too.
The market share stats for Linux on the desktop, ie, how many people choose to run Linux on their home computer or laptop, are readily available. It matches the observation.
We all live on the same planet, so if I say "I've rarely seen this", and you see the same thing...
Tenser made this a point of contention because that is just what some people do. IT could have easily been refuted by data, or a survey, but
he provided neither.
I like running web servers, but I know a lot of people don't. I expect there are people who like running e-mail servers. I sure don't. There's no hobbyist pleasure in that for me, personally.
Now this really is wasting _my_ time. If you don't want to be
educated on this matter, that's your business; I'm certainly
done trying, and I'll thank you for not mentioning me again.
Current Linux desktop market usage, which is a good indication of what people choose to use.
https://itsfoss.com/linux-market-share/
Everyone else got it..
And I'll talk to whomever I want about whatever I want.
On 10-06-22 21:42, Ogg wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Yuk, I'm not keen on that sort of content, because the process of
following links is actually quite tedious. :(
OpneXP can handle hotlinks, no problem. ;)
Most of the time, the brief synopsis of the news item is
enough. I don't bother visiting the links too much.
Spectre wrote to boraxman <=-
Current Linux desktop market usage, which is a good indication of what people choose to use.
https://itsfoss.com/linux-market-share/
But you're choosing a specific niche in which to look at the picture..
apam wrote to boraxman <=-
Everyone else got it..
No, I think everyone else stopped reading this thread ages ago.
And I'll talk to whomever I want about whatever I want.
Not here I hope. FSXnet has rules about the kind of content is
acceptable.
Well past time to let this thread die I think.
Andrew
--- Talisman v0.44-dev (Windows/x64)
* Origin: Smuggler's Cove - Private BBS (21:1/182)
OpneXP can handle hotlinks, no problem. ;)
A small minority of users.
DustCouncil wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
What should be accounted for is the *sheer joylessness* of hosting a server of any sort, if you have anything like a limited number of hours
in the day *and* you don't particularly get a charge out of running
one.
I like running web servers, but I know a lot of people don't. I expect there are people who like running e-mail servers. I sure don't.
There's no hobbyist pleasure in that for me, personally.
unixl0rd wrote to Nightfox <=-
The nice thing about Windows 10 is that you easily run unix software by installing LSW. It's basically Ubuntu running alongside Windows.
current employer gave me a Windows PC on my first day at the job. I
told them that I needed command line tools that wouldn't work under Windows, and they got me a Macbook pro. I understand that some people
may not be so lucky.
NuSkooler wrote to boraxman <=-
Yep, I have my mother running Linux. It saves her from malware and the like, and just like your wife, she uses it for what she wants and
doesn't notice the difference. I even gave her a "Windows-like" desktop
so the 'start' button, apps, etc. are familiar. Never looked back.
boraxman wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
This would be a perverse view, if Google had it. The value of e-mail
is precisely its interoperability. If google is doing this, they are killing e-mail. But then again, Google have killed many other products
of theirs, haven't they?
Print support was a royal pain, I had to swap out her perfectly good printer for a new one that they supported after they deprecated Cloud Print. And, I had to buy her a new one after 5 years when it went EOL.
Print support was a royal pain, I had to swap out her perfectly good printe for a new one that they supported after they deprecated Cloud Print. And, I had to buy her a new one after 5 years when it went EOL.
Good for me, though - flip a hardware switch to allow writing to the BIOS, burn a third-party BIOS to it and I can use it as a Linux ultrabook, albeit slightly lower powered than I'd like.
I like running web servers, but I know a lot of people don't. I expect Du>> there are people who like running e-mail servers. I sure don't. There's Du>> no hobbyist pleasure in that for me, personally.
I enjoy running a BBS at home, and I also use that PC to run Plex Media Server, which I enjoy. As far as running an email server, I think the main reason I'd enjoy running such a thing is that it's my own, I have complete control over it, and I could probably have an email address on a domain of my choosing (i.e., with my name or something).
I'm also running my BBS at home, next to an Emby Media Server.
I'm running a mail server for several domains (for my wife, her mum
and me) and don't have massive problems with mails (only sometimes
with Micro$oft users)
Never had any problems delivering to Gmail. Microsoft I'm convinced is using some sort of internal reputation for Hotmail/Live.
Never had any problems delivering to Gmail. Microsoft I'm convinced is using some sort of internal reputation for Hotmail/Live.
Woah! Hotmail is still a thing? I don't think I've seen anyone using a hotmail account in the last ten years. Might be a local thing though.
Getting elderly parents on Chromebooks is a good thing. I bought my mom a nice Toshiba Chromebook with Beats speakers and a 1080p screen. She has access to Google docs, photos, sync her Android phone to it so she can send text messages from the laptop, and she doesn't have to worry about those popups claiming that she has a Windows virus and to call a number to "remove" it.
Print support was a royal pain, I had to swap out her perfectly good printer for a new one that they supported after they deprecated Cloud Print. And, I had to buy her a new one after 5 years when it went EOL.
Good for me, though - flip a hardware switch to allow writing to the BIOS, burn a third-party BIOS to it and I can use it as a Linux ultrabook, albeit slightly lower powered than I'd like.
Woah! Hotmail is still a thing? I don't think I've seen anyone using a hotmail account in the last ten years. Might be a local thing though.
boraxman said to tenser: <=-
That's not what "gatekeeperism" means.
This is arguing a strawman: you've got a very different
definition of "gatekeeperism" than what most other people
Not really, I acknowledge I likely used the term incorrectly. The
meaning behind what is said matters more than the specific words used.
Adept said to Spectre: <=-
I'm of the belief that most "youth" are severely impaired when it comes to reading. They're to busy busting out the slang, and for the most part comprehension skills seem to have fallen through the floor. Which is
Kids these days...
But, seriously, my issue with this analysis is more that I doubt the intelligence of youth in the 90s or 80s.
Spectre said to Adept: <=-
comprehension skills seem to have fallen through the floor. Which is probably also an indictment of the teaching system.
intelligence of youth in the 90s or 80s.
at english skills rather than IQ.. If I had to hazzard it with no real data, english reading and comprehension has been in decline since the
mid to late 70s and its more recently fallen off a precipice...
Warpslide said to Spectre: <=-
One only needs to look at the quality of song lyrics for proof of that.
I'm afraid before too long we'll have some "#1 Hit" that is a person repeating the same word over & over.
boraxman said to tenser: <=-
I've never seen a Linux desktop at work, and few people that I know who
boraxman said to tenser: <=-
Take random people off the street and ask them if they've used Windows, MacOS or Linux, and tell me the result. Ask them what they use at
home, what they know.
Far more people use Linux than they think. My argument was based on
what people chose to use for their computing.
You're either being unnecessarily pedantic, deliberately taking my
argument in bad faith, or genuinely not understanding it.
boraxman said to tenser: <=-
The ONLY Linux desktop I ever saw at a workplace was the one I had when
I worked in IT support, because I chose to install it. I've worked at
many companies, and audited and visited many others.
Woah! Hotmail is still a thing? I don't think I've seen anyone using a hotmail account in the last ten years. Might be a local thing though.
Spec
WSL - Windows Subsystem for Linux. You can run one of several distros under WSL2. Under Windows 11, it'll apparently run X apps, too.
I think that's a bit too cynical. And I am a dyed-in-the-wool cynic. :) I have had a lot of exposure to Gen-Z reading and comp classes between my kiddos (college freshman, high school junior and freshman). *What* the younger generation chooses to read is vastly different than what we read, and they consume it differently, but reading comprehension is strong in GenZ.
I'm also running my BBS at home, next to an Emby Media Server.
I'm running a mail server for several domains (for my wife, her mum
and me) and don't have massive problems with mails (only sometimes
with Micro$oft users)
Mostly the same scenario here too. I've been running my own email server at home for close to... 15 years and its all Microsoft, Exchange, proxy frontend etc, no Linux here. Are you using Domain-keys, SPF/Dmarc etc?
Never had any problems delivering to Gmail. Microsoft I'm convinced is
using some sort of internal reputation for Hotmail/Live.
NuSkooler wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Can relate. My parents have these ancient printers, but they do work
well still, so they won't get rid of them. Probably from '98 era or so.
I had to do some rigging to get them to work in Linux. My father has a Windows machine he runs Photoshop in. For that, I had to run something
out of VMware just so he could print ;D
I want my old HP Inkjet 500 back. 300 dpi, built like a tank.
poindexter FORTRAN around Tuesday October 11th...
I want my old HP Inkjet 500 back. 300 dpi built like a tank.
Im actually really wanting to get my paws on a nice dot matrix that at least feels retro enough but that I can get ink and paper for!
--
|08 ■ |12NuSkooler |06// |12Xibalba |08- |07|06The place of fear|07
|08 ■ |03xibalba|08.|03l33t|08.|03codes |08(|0344510|08/|03telnet|08 |0344511|08/|03ssh|08)
|08 ■ |03ENiGMA 1/2 WHQ |08| |03Phenom |08| |0367 |08| |03iMPURE |08| |03ACiDic
--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.13-beta (linux; x64; 16.16.0)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)
I'm actually really wanting to get my paws on a nice dot matrix that at least feels retro enough, but that I can get ink and paper for!
There are plenty around. Most Epsons you'll still get ribbons for, Apple Imagewriters are another good option, it uses a C-Itoh ribbon, its a nominal 9 pin unless you find an imagewriter II, but you can't get colour ribbons for that particular model.
On 10-09-22 09:56, Ogg wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Since you like the offline approach, you should give OpenXP a
try.
The problem with anecdotal "evidence" is that it is so easy to bring up alternate examples. My first day at Jabber Inc, my first task was to remove Windows from the laptop I was given and install debian on it. Everyone on the tech side of the company ran linux, even after we were purchased by Cisco. My next two employers after that were dominated by linux workstations (Ubuntu and centos, mostly). The Linux desktop is
here, just not in places where you've had exposure too.
Take random people off the street and ask them if they've used Windows MacOS or Linux, and tell me the result. Ask them what they use at home, what they know.
That doesn't make any sense at all. Half the Windows users won't know
what version of Windows they use, there'll be a lot of people who have
no idea that there's something besides Windows, and a whole bunch of people will answer with the equivalent of "who cares?"
No, it wan't, your argument said that Linux was a niche product. If you meant your argument to be something else, you should have specified that. Words have meaning, and meaning is important.
You're either being unnecessarily pedantic, deliberately taking my argument in bad faith, or genuinely not understanding it.
No, you just did what you seem to do a lot when someone makes a point
that you can't refute: you try and change the subject and say we misunderstood your original statement/argument.
The ONLY Linux desktop I ever saw at a workplace was the one I had whe I worked in IT support, because I chose to install it. I've worked at many companies, and audited and visited many others.
In a previous position, I had *three* desktops with Linux on them, one running Ubuntu, one RHEL 6 and one SUSE stacked on my desk. That means that I directly refute your anecdotal "evidence" not once, not twice but THREE times!
As I've mentioned to you a few times, anecdotal "evidence" is not evidence, it's just a description of one person's experience.
-*- Bex <3
On 10-09-22 09:56, Ogg wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Since you like the offline approach, you should give OpenXP a
try.
Hehe, think we've covered this ground before. :)
Linux does seem much more prevalent in tech circles. I work in
the pharmaceutical business, and everything there is straight
down the line standard "enterprise" solutions. Doesn't make for
a good computing environment.
Linux does seem much more prevalent in tech circles. I work in
the pharmaceutical business, and everything there is straight
down the line standard "enterprise" solutions. Doesn't make for
a good computing environment.
WSL+Docker does at least make it more tolerable... if less than ideal.
--
I don't know they were a lot smarter... but I'm specificially looking at english skills rather than IQ.. If I had to hazzard it with no real data, english reading and comprehension has been in decline since the mid to late 70s and its more recently fallen off a precipice...
Re: Re: Community
By: Spectre to Adept on Mon Oct 03 2022 07:32 am
I don't know they were a lot smarter... but I'm specificia
english skills rather than IQ.. If I had to hazzard it wit
english reading and comprehension has been in decline sinc
late 70s and its more recently fallen off a precipice...
It seems that way to me too. In recent years, I feel like I've
hecking the work just don't have good English skills. And at t
.
Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
It seems that way to me too. In recent years, I feel like I've
hecking the work just don't have good English skills. And at t
Actually, what did you expect?
A quality Magazine with original content and a proofreading and
tech revision team is about ten times more expensive than one that
lacks proofing or which only buys articles from foreigner
publications and has an underpaid Mexican translate them. Guess
which magazines you may find in press stands and which ones you
need to dig for in obscure places.
It seems that way to me too. In recent years, I feel like I've been seeing more and more spelling and grammar mistakes in writing, and even sometimes in printed material (magazines, signs, etc.). It's like they don't have anyone proofread it, or those checking the work just don't have good English skills. And at the same time, people get really annoyed when you try to point out the bad spelling/grammar, or if you're genuinely confused by what you read, they thiink you're making fun of them or something.
Actually, what did you expect?
For native English speakers, at least (and I live in the US, where English is the predominant language), I'd think most people would have a fairly good grasp on the language. But I often see simple mistakes such as people using the wrong version of their/they're/there, your/you're, etc., and using an apostrophe for a plural, etc.. Things like that seem like simple mistakes where I'd think at least native speakers would know better.
I don't know they were a lot smarter... but I'm specificially looking english skills rather than IQ.. If I had to hazzard it with no real d english reading and comprehension has been in decline since the mid t late 70s and its more recently fallen off a precipice...
It seems that way to me too. In recent years, I feel like I've been seeing more and more spelling and grammar mistakes in writing, and even sometimes in printed material (magazines, signs, etc.). It's like they don't have anyone proofread it, or those checking the work just don't
have good English skills. And at the same time, people get really
annoyed when you try to point out the bad spelling/grammar, or if you're genuinely confused by what you read, they thiink you're making fun of
them or something.
Actually, what did you expect?
To be frank, better.
The errors I see are so basic anyone casting an eye over the text should
be able to pick it up. I can get with the idea when you write something, and edit it, you'll have a tendency to read what you thought you wrote, that's why there are proofreaders or in fact non-proofreaders also.
If you can't get it right, and you have no form of reader proof or otherwise,
I find it will help quite significantly if you read it to yourself aloud. You'll often find things that get overlooked otherwise.
Spec
*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: Good Luck and drive offensively! (21:3/101)
I come from a tech documentation background, so when I think of bad mistakes, I think of functional mistakes. If you assign a wrong
number to a part or a diagram, you can cause a lot of trouble
for the user.
Then there are the instruction sets you cannot replicate for cheap in your home. Maybe you are writing some tutorial for a specific piece of equipment you are very familiar with, but you don't happen to have
nearby by the time you are writing, and since deadlines are a bitch
you end up finishing the piece crouched in the backseat of a bus.
extra times. Keep in mind I have not started about examining plot consistency yet.
My gripe is the current industry of written fiction pretty much expects authors to deliver a publishing grade work to the publishing
house. This means a given author is to deliver a text which is 95%
ready for publication, in a formatting determined by the publisher,
in exchange for a 85% probability of the publisher sending
Think of it. The author is supposed to accomplish a titanic task in exchange for a meager probability of it being read. Basically,
we are asking writers to do work for value of 250*bucks in
exchange of scraps. OF COURSE quality is going to suffer
I come from a tech documentation background, so when I think of bad mistakes, I think of functional mistakes. If you assign a wrong
number to a part or a diagram, you can cause a lot of trouble
for the user.
That seems reasonable, and I'd expect in some kind of tech documentation the author would know more on what they are writing about to make the work functionally useful. Diagrammatical errors I'd associate less with an author
as most authors wouldn't be the illustrative author. So there might be a disconnect between the author of the text and the artist.
Then there are the instruction sets you cannot replicate for cheap in your
home. Maybe you are writing some tutorial for a specific piece of equipment you are very familiar with, but you don't happen to have nearby by the time you are writing, and since deadlines are a bitch
you end up finishing the piece crouched in the backseat of a bus.
This sounds like a mash between someone not doing it as a primary role, and trying to compete in that market. I know nothing about deadlines, never had to work to any, at least not since high school. It strikes me as poor time management if you need the device on hand and you no longer have it, or its at home and you're on a bus for some reason. Shrug, I hear what you're saying
but, it seems you're either in the wrong job, or need a better focus on that job. I don't have any fantastic answer for this.
extra times. Keep in mind I have not started about examining plot consistency yet.
This one seems cut and dried to me, if the author of some fictional work can't keep the story straight, how is anyone else going to manage it? I'm not
sure proofreaders are going to help that much if at all.
My gripe is the current industry of written fiction pretty much expects
authors to deliver a publishing grade work to the publishing
house. This means a given author is to deliver a text which is 95% ready for publication, in a formatting determined by the publisher,
in exchange for a 85% probability of the publisher sending
This does appear to be unrealistic. Times change I s'pose, but I'd have thought the authors job is to tell an entertaining coherent story, that's as good as they can make it. After that you'd feed it to your "proofreader", get it typeset, re-read and head of to print or publish. It's a waste of time
if they haven't even decided they like before even worrying about the subsequent details.
Think of it. The author is supposed to accomplish a titanic task in exchange for a meager probability of it being read. Basically,
we are asking writers to do work for value of 250*bucks in
exchange of scraps. OF COURSE quality is going to suffer
Short stories for the most part and I might be wrong, make me reminisce about
pulp fiction. If thats the market you're in, then the strike rate has always been low even in the days of yore. Some ~90 hit the fireplace without going anywhere so this is not a new phenomenon but the extra work required going by
the above is pointless if that is the case. Used to be a thing about getting
something, anything published by someone being an accomplishment in its own right. Perhaps you need a level of that to keep you at it, without looking at
it as a "job". I think in order to make any kind of serious money in the writing field you need to either be really lucky and or be truly exceptional at it, the money makers seem to be the exception, not the rule.
Spec
*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: Good Luck and drive offensively! (21:3/101)
/dev/null. A number of Editors for big pulp magazines outright say that they are unlikely to read past the first paragraph of each manuscript.
The name of the game for them is Burning Through as Many Manuscripts
as Possible. With so many manuscripts on their desks, anything that does not look fine from the get go is going into the trash bin.
I think most good authors will generate fiction free from gaping plot holes, but that does not mean you need not look for those. When
one is writing, things are christal clear in his head, but you have
to check your ideas are conveyed to the readers properly.
After being exposed to publisher's selection processes, I no longer think quality is what makes a money maker in the pulp market. I have seen
quite a lot fine manuscripts kicked out so the Editor could work
on mediocre ones instead. There is a lot of hidden criteria for
selecting what gets worked on and what gets burnt at the stake,
but I'd say if you write an average piece that can be sent to the
press ASAP, you have much better chances of having the story bought
than if you write a masterpiece which needs some extra adjustements
to fit this month's magazine pagecount.
....To maximise your chances of any given story being
used you'll need to tailor your efforts to what fits in the publication you're sending scripts to.
Spec
You'd expect that they'd have guidlines for word/page counts going in. I'd also expect that some will sit on the back burner waiting for a time when the
page count fits goldilocks free page numbers in the "current" edition. So it may take some time before anything appears to happen.
This brings to mind the saying "You need to know your audience."
See, Fantasy and Science Fiction Magazine accepts, teoretically, flash fiction pieces, but I have never seen them publish flash fiction.
selected 2, yours is gonna end up in /dev/null. There is not such
a thing as saving a good story this month for future use in this
industry.
My point is that the odds are so low that the mathematical profit expectancy of a given story is abyssmal, so it is just natural
for quality to degrade. This dawned on me once I found an author,
See, Fantasy and Science Fiction Magazine accepts,
teoretically, flash fiction pieces, but I have never seen
them publish flash fiction. [...]
Then there is the issue that a given magazine might publish
a fixed number of stories for ech given length (say, 2
flash pieces and 5 short stories). If you send a flash
piece and the editor has already selected 2, yours is gonna
end up in /dev/null. [...]
On Friday, October 7th boraxman was heard saying...
I installed Linux for my wife, but to her its just a web browser with files on the desktop and a few games. She doesn't care what she's us because she's not really "using" the operating system as such.
Yep, I have my mother running Linux. It saves her from malware and the like, and just like your wife, she uses it for what she wants and
doesn't notice the difference. I even gave her a "Windows-like" desktop
so the 'start' button, apps, etc. are familiar. Never looked back.
Arelor wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Replacing working hardware in order to make it fit your software deployment sounds so, so wasteful to me.
I run mostly OpenBSD at home, yet I have never discarded working
hardwae just because I could not make it work for my deployment. I
either adjusted my deployment so I didn't have to purchase more
electronic junk or found a new use for the hardware I was about to discard.
NuSkooler wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
poindexter FORTRAN around Tuesday, October 11th...
I want my old HP Inkjet 500 back. 300 dpi, built like a tank.
I'm actually really wanting to get my paws on a nice dot matrix that at least feels retro enough, but that I can get ink and paper for!
Spectre wrote to Atreyu <=-
Woah! Hotmail is still a thing? I don't think I've seen anyone using a hotmail account in the last ten years. Might be a local thing though.
Nightfox wrote to Spectre <=-
I thought Microsoft is now requiring a Hotmail email address to create
a user account in certain versions of Windows? Unless maybe Microsoft
has another email service they're using. I think they actually renamed Hotmail to Outlook not too long ago. But yes, it's still a thing.
Bex wrote to boraxman <=-
Words are important.
Bex wrote to Adept <=-
Adept said to Spectre: <=-
Every generation thinks the generations after them are lacking in education, intelligence, morals, etc. It's time for us GenXers to start doing the same thing to millenials and gen-Zers, unfortunately. I had hoped we were above such things.
I thought Microsoft is now requiring a Hotmail email address to
With Windows 10, you could back out of it, but I think 11 requires an account. In exchange, you get profile, wallpaper and bookmark sync, which is *ok*, but I'm sure others would like to choose.
With Windows 10, you could back out of it, but I think 11 requires an account. In exchange, you get profile, wallpaper and bookmark sync, which is *ok*, but I'm sure others would like to choose.
My hotmail address goes to user@outlook.com. Outlook for the web is a decent webmail service, and when you have a Microsoft365 account you get all of the bells and whistles you get with Exchange, like calendars, notes, tasks and
so forth.
Woah! Hotmail is still a thing? I don't think I've seen anyone using hotmail account in the last ten years. Might be a local thing though.
It's outlook.com now, but if you had a hotmail address it carried over.
... Don't avoid what is easy
boraxman wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
I still have a hotmail address, though I lost my original one. I used hotmail back when it was stylised as HoTMaiL. Ahh, that takes me back,
my first e-mail address.
I still have a hotmail address, though I lost my original one. I use hotmail back when it was stylised as HoTMaiL. Ahh, that takes me bac my first e-mail address.
Back in the 2000s, recruiters used hotmail accounts as throwaways, then fill them up with resumes and have them bounce mail once they were
full. Annoying.
It seems that way to me too. In recent years, I feel like I've been seeing more and more spelling and grammar mistakes in writing, and even
Huge hailstones have battered part of Australia, with more "severe" weather >to set to hit a major city tonight.
Huge hailstones are bettering parts of New South Wales, with an emergency >warning declared.
Back in the 2000s, recruiters used hotmail accounts as throwaways, then fill them up with resumes and have them bounce mail once they were
full. Annoying.
Adept wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
I should dive into contacting recruiters again, now that I have
industry experience. But I'm not at all sure that I'd _want_ to, even
if some of them do provide value to prospective employees.
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Bex <=-
Words are important.
I agree; with some of the bizarre word usements I structure I've had to spend much time in preparing.
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Bex <=-
Every generation thinks the generations after them are lacking in education, intelligence, morals, etc. It's time for us GenXers to start doing the same thing to millenials and gen-Zers, unfortunately. I had hoped we were above such things.
Funny, I keep hoping the next generation will get things like race relations right.
| Sysop: | digital man |
|---|---|
| Location: | Riverside County, California |
| Users: | 1,050 |
| Nodes: | 15 (0 / 15) |
| Uptime: | 06:03:57 |
| Calls: | 233,513 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 60,144 |
| D/L today: |
12 files (23,937K bytes) |
| Messages: | 300,333 |