It's a quick update from Proxmox 7. Run pve7to8 to check for issues,
update, edit your repos, and do an "apt dist-upgrade".

I was able to move my active guests to a backup host, upgrade my
primary, move the guests back and upgrade my secondary in about 40
minutes. Most of the time was migrating the hosts.

Proxmox Virtual Environment 8.0 (released on June 22, 2023) includes
multiple enhancements:

- Debian 12 "Bookworm", but using a newer Linux kernel 6.2
- QEMU 8.0.2, LXC 5.0.2, ZFS 2.1.12
- Optional Text mode installer (TUI)
- New default CPU type x86-64-v2-AES for VMs
- Ceph Quincy 17.2.6 and a new, stable Ceph Enterprise repository
- Authentication realm sync jobs
- ACL for network resources
- Resource mappings between PCI(e) or USB devices and nodes in a cluster
- and much more....

... Don't bite the hand that feeds you WiFi.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

It's a quick update from Proxmox 7. Run pve7to8 to check for issues, update, edit your repos, and do an "apt dist-upgrade".

Nice; I just made the upgrade as I'm writing this reply (and reading your post)... its going nicely; did an upgrade first, followed by dist-upgrade.

Had an autoremove afterward; easy peasy...



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

On 24 Jun 2023, paulie420 said the following...

It's a quick update from Proxmox 7. Run pve7to8 to check for issues, update, edit your repos, and do an "apt dist-upgrade".

Nice; I just made the upgrade as I'm writing this reply (and reading your post)... its going nicely; did an upgrade first, followed by
dist-upgrade.

Had an autoremove afterward; easy peasy...

Other then the upgrade, what did you do with your VM's? I will make a backup of all of mine but did you have to do anything special with them if you shut them down? I am worried I am going to lose my VM's and I have quite a few that I use for different things..

... Isn’t it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice"?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Wrong Number Family Of BBS' - Wrong Number ][ (21:4/131)

Other then the upgrade, what did you do with your VM's? I will make a backup of all of mine but did you have to do anything special with them
if you shut them down? I am worried I am going to lose my VM's and I
have quite a few that I use for different things..

Well - hopefully nothing... the upgrade runs behind the VMs; don't need to shut em down or nothing... until everything goes boom, and all. :P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

On 24 Jun 2023, paulie420 said the following...

Well - hopefully nothing... the upgrade runs behind the VMs; don't need
to shut em down or nothing... until everything goes boom, and all. :P

I will give it a shot this week.. I will backup all of my VM's first.. LOL

... This virus requires Microsoft Windows 3.x

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Wrong Number Family Of BBS' - Wrong Number ][ (21:4/131)

Am 24.06.23 schrieb poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 in FSX_GEN:

Hallo poindexter,

It's a quick update from Proxmox 7. Run pve7to8 to check for issues, update, edit your repos, and do an "apt dist-upgrade".

It's a shame that it's still not possible to mount (and swap) virtual
floppy disks in Proxmox...
As I do use floppies sometimes (eg. for installing NetWare licenses),
I'm still using VMware ESXi...

Regards,
Anna

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)

I'm still using VMware ESXi...

I have an older DELL server from a placed I worked that is also running VMware ESXi :)

Timothy Norris
aka SirRonmit
admin@f4fbbs.com
bbs.f4fbbs.com:2323 or :62323

... A book misplaced is a book lost

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Files 4 Fun BBS (21:2/120)

Bucko wrote to paulie420 <=-

Other then the upgrade, what did you do with your VM's? I will make a backup of all of mine but did you have to do anything special with them
if you shut them down?

If you can spare another system, you can make a cluster, then move your
VMs back and forth to upgrade. I've got a bunch of VMs that I don't
care about, which I left in place. PiHole, the BBS, and my reverse
proxy container I moved to the second PM box, then upgraded, then moved
them back, then upgraded the second box.




... "He who is without oil, shall cast the first rod."-Compressions 8.7:1.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

On 26 Jun 2023, poindexter FORTRAN said the following...

If you can spare another system, you can make a cluster, then move your
VMs back and forth to upgrade. I've got a bunch of VMs that I don't
care about, which I left in place. PiHole, the BBS, and my reverse
proxy container I moved to the second PM box, then upgraded, then moved
them back, then upgraded the second box.

Hmmm, that is a good idea, I do have a second box which has Proxmoxx on it which used to run my Xpenology NAS. It is just sitting there doing nothing.. Maybe I will do that. Can't hurt..

Thanks...

... Just another prisoner of gravity!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Wrong Number Family Of BBS' - Wrong Number ][ (21:4/131)

If you can spare another system, you can make a cluster, then move your
VMs back and forth to upgrade.

Even a raspberry pi will do to create a quorum for a cluster - I ran mine like that for a good while before I moved half the cluster into a datacentre. Now they're both back home again I may go the Pi route again :-)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: TassieBob BBS, Hobart, Tasmania (21:3/169)

On 26 Jun 2023 at 07:00a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

If you can spare another system, you can make a cluster, then move your
VMs back and forth to upgrade. I've got a bunch of VMs that I don't
care about, which I left in place. PiHole, the BBS, and my reverse

I owe you an apology as I recall we've chatted about creating a Home Lab echo of which I suspect some of this would fir nicely within it?

All of which is to say I'll try and make time to get something sorted in the coming weeks ;-)

Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

acn wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

It's a shame that it's still not possible to mount (and swap) virtual floppy disks in Proxmox...
As I do use floppies sometimes (eg. for installing NetWare licenses),
I'm still using VMware ESXi...

I'd be surprised if someone hasn't requested that already.

Sounds like there is a workaround, though -

https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/floppy.41669/



... All of my certifications are self-signed.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

tassiebob wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

If you can spare another system, you can make a cluster, then move your
VMs back and forth to upgrade.

Even a raspberry pi will do to create a quorum for a cluster - I ran
mine like that for a good while before I moved half the cluster into a datacentre. Now they're both back home again I may go the Pi route
again :-)

Interesting idea - I get complaints about not having a quorum; I only
have 2 devices in my cluster. I have a Raspberry Pi 3 not much good for
much, if it could create a consensus, I'd have a better time of
clustering.

I have a pi 4, too - but it's my media player. I could always use an old
Intel desktop as a media player and use the Pi 4.

Too much hardware laying around - there are worse problems to have.



... IN CASE OF EMERGENCY DIAL 0118 999 881 999 119 725 3
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Avon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I owe you an apology as I recall we've chatted about creating a Home
Lab echo of which I suspect some of this would fir nicely within it?

All of which is to say I'll try and make time to get something sorted
in the coming weeks ;-)

No worries, would love to see an echo for these discussions (and keep
the general echo, well, general...). No rush, either - we're all busy
in that other life outside of BBSes. :)




... Walk without rhythm and you won't attact the worm.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

I owe you an apology as I recall we've chatted about creating a Home Lab echo of which I suspect some of this would fir nicely within it?

Maybe slightly broader than "Home Lab", and just "Self Host"? For technical chats on running your own servers/services... I would imagine that most are running at home, but a lot of similar types of discussion/question when running on hosted servers as well.


--
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tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

I owe you an apology as I recall we've chatted about creating a Home echo of which I suspect some of this would fir nicely within it?

Maybe slightly broader than "Home Lab", and just "Self Host"? For technical chats on running your own servers/services... I would imagine that most are running at home, but a lot of similar types of discussion/question when running on hosted servers as well.

May derail this a bit, but Proxmox has been stable at home. For years I ran ESXi but recently migrated over the last couple months do to the broadcom situation.

What is the state of the Broadcom situation?

... If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Clutch BBS * telnet://clutchbbs.com (21:1/199)

niter3 wrote to Tracker1 <=-

What is the state of the Broadcom situation?

I havent heard anything since the Broadcom CEO's statements alluding to
the fact that most of their revenues come from a small number of huge enterprise customers. That doesn't bode well for ROBO (remote
office/branch office) customers or anyone who's not in that 20%.

We're in the process of moving our data center workloads to the cloud,
and our remote/branch office workloads to Nutanix. More expensive, but
service has been impeccible - especially when compared to VMWare.


... Emphasize the flaws
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

I havent heard anything since the Broadcom CEO's statements alluding to the fact that most of their revenues come from a small number of huge enterprise customers. That doesn't bode well for ROBO (remote office/branch office) customers or anyone who's not in that 20%.

We're in the process of moving our data center workloads to the cloud,
and our remote/branch office workloads to Nutanix. More expensive, but service has been impeccible - especially when compared to VMWare.

Seems most companies are all going cloud. Including the company I work for. We do however have esxi hosts at many of our local sites, but our main servers sit in the cloud.

I personally dislike the cloud in everyway possible way. :)

... BREAKFAST.COM Halted... Cereal port not responding.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Clutch BBS * telnet://clutchbbs.com (21:1/199)

Am 30.06.23 schrieb poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 in FSX_GEN:

Hallo poindexter,

It's a shame that it's still not possible to mount (and swap) virtual
floppy disks in Proxmox...
As I do use floppies sometimes (eg. for installing NetWare licenses),
I'm still using VMware ESXi...

I'd be surprised if someone hasn't requested that already.
Sounds like there is a workaround, though - https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/floppy.41669/

Well, only partially. This way, I can define a single flooppy disk
image to be attached to the VM, but how could I swap it with another
floppy?
Say, like when installing DOS from floppies to a VM...
In VMware ESXi, this is possible without any problems.

Regards,
Anna

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)

On 04 Jul 2023 at 03:46p, Tracker1 pondered and said...

I owe you an apology as I recall we've chatted about creating a Home echo of which I suspect some of this would fir nicely within it?

Maybe slightly broader than "Home Lab", and just "Self Host"? For technical chats on running your own servers/services... I would imagine that most are running at home, but a lot of similar types of discussion/question when running on hosted servers as well.

thanks ponder this some more..

Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

I havent heard anything since the Broadcom CEO's statements alluding t
the fact that most of their revenues come from a small number of huge enterprise customers. That doesn't bode well for ROBO (remote office/branch office) customers or anyone who's not in that 20%.

I must have been under a rock and missed what Broadcom apparently did. That the majority of their revenue comes from a handful of very large customers doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

I personally dislike the cloud in everyway possible way. :)

I dislike cloud virtual machines, but I get why companies do it. I have a couple - one is a freebie Oracle cloud server, mostly because it was free, and one for $5/month in the US that I use as a private VPN server (I don't trust commercial VPN providers and the tainted IP space they hang out in any further than I can kick them).

I /really/ dislike cloud applicatons though - those ones that hold various collections of your data, where you're trusting their ability to keep it secure for you. That, and some of them seem to come and go on a whim, or get bought by another company that your own customers might have an "issue" with.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: TassieBob BBS, Hobart, Tasmania (21:3/169)

I dislike cloud virtual machines, but I get why companies do it. I have

Do you, because it seems if you run a 5 year forecast seems quite more expensive then keeping it local if datacenters are available, which in our case they are.

Some will argue employment requirements would need to increase, but I'm sure in some circumstances you could outsource some of this work too.

I don't know, being a former server admin, I do hate to see it go to the cloud.

... Live every day as though it were your last. One day, you'll be right

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Clutch BBS * telnet://clutchbbs.com (21:1/199)

I dislike cloud virtual machines, but I get why companies do it. I ha

Do you, because it seems if you run a 5 year forecast seems quite more expensive then keeping it local if datacenters are available, which in
our case they are.

I believe you're right, but I've yet to work at a company where they've actually done a proper analysis of the costs. Seems they just look at the
headline bullet points and don't dig much deeper. Once the first few things are in the cloud it becomes easier to just drop all the new things there too.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the cloud sounded great for elastic capacity so you can scale up/down as your peak load increases. I don't think it's a great solution for the "base load".

I don't know, being a former server admin, I do hate to see it go to the cloud.

It's increasingly common in networking too - let's just buy a virtual network from someone else than build your own - be that a multi-site office VPN, or a full on white-label service provider solution.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: TassieBob BBS, Hobart, Tasmania (21:3/169)

Maybe slightly broader than "Home Lab", and just "Self Host"? For technical chats on running
your own servers/services... I would imagine that most are running at home, but a lot of
similar types of discussion/question when running on hosted servers as well.

May derail this a bit, but Proxmox has been stable at home. For years I ran ESXi but recently
migrated over the last couple months do to the broadcom situation.

My home server is running Proxmox, as well as my dedicated server, been doing pretty well with both.

What is the state of the Broadcom situation?

Apologies, but I don't know what this is "the Broadcom situation"


--
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tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
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* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

I must have been under a rock and missed what Broadcom apparently did. That the majority of their revenue comes from a handful of very large customers doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Same here... The cloud/saas trend definitely makes their business model more difficult. Also likely well past the time they could have spun thier own cloud/saas hosting.

I personally dislike the cloud in everyway possible way. :)

I dislike cloud virtual machines, but I get why companies do it. I have a couple - one is a freebie Oracle cloud server, mostly because it was free, and one for $5/month in the US that I use as a private VPN server (I don't trust commercial VPN providers and the tainted IP space they hang out in any further than I can kick them).

I'm generally okay with it, I'm currently mostly using a single dedicated (hosted) server with proxmox and several VMs including the BBS for personal use. I do have one small cloud server for (ipv4|ipv6).bbs.land just to support returning one's IP address for when I get a few of my domains setup for dyndns services (and moving bbs.io).

At work though, heavily entrenched with AWS Lambda, DynamoDB and a handful of other services... it works okay, but the codebase is way more complex than it probably needs to be, even if the domain space is very large and legally complex.


--
Michael J. Ryan
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tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

I dislike cloud virtual machines, but I get why companies do it. I

Do you, because it seems if you run a 5 year forecast seems quite more expensive then keeping it local if datacenters are available, which in our case they are.

Depends on the use case... if you're able to leverage services on demand and have peak loads that are infrequent, it can be less expensive than a bunch of servers that may be mostly idle. Of course, developing against cloud services is a different story, which can have both benefits and risks.

Some will argue employment requirements would need to increase, but I'm sure in some circumstances you could outsource some of this work too.

It varies... My experience with outsourced work has been relatively low quality, with a lot of cleanup/maintenance that becomes more difficult over time. Will vary from company to company, but that's just my take. For smaller one-off work it can be a good option though.

I don't know, being a former server admin, I do hate to see it go to the cloud.

Cloud stuff still needs a lot of server administration, it's just the servers/services/tools change. Instead of bash scripts or ansible you may be more focused on Cloudformation or Terraform... Instead of ESXi or direct hosts it may be Kubernetes or individual services.

A lot of it, assuming you stick closer to just VMs is effectively the same as self-hosting, but you don't need to wait 2+ weeks to get a new server deployed to a data center. You also don't have to worry about replacing dead hardware.

It just comes down to rented servers and services that you don't have to deal with some of the lower level issues.


--
Michael J. Ryan
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tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
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* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Do you, because it seems if you run a 5 year forecast seems quite
more expensive then keeping it local if datacenters are available,
which in our case they are.

I believe you're right, but I've yet to work at a company where they've actually done a proper analysis of the costs. Seems they just look at the headline bullet points and don't dig much deeper. Once the first few things are in the cloud it becomes easier to just drop all the new things there too. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the cloud sounded great for elastic capacity so you can scale up/down as your peak load increases. I don't think it's a great solution for the "base load".

It depends... At a very startup level, you may have a few guys that can code, but no budget for dedicated IT to do the low level management of servers, let alone the skills to setup the stack(s). If your service spend is under even $3k/month that will be less than a single full time administrator, and that doesn't include the server/data/hosting costs you'd incure anyway. Just past that stage it *could* be less expensive, assuming you have some dedicated IT admin resources and needs for more localized servers.

It also gets less expensive to self host, or manage your own servers at a much larger scale... the in between you can take advantage of more flexible loads. Depends on the applications, instances, usage and needs.

It can be easier to have one domain administrator running Azure Domain with Office/Microsoft 365 for a few hundred accounts than to run/license Windows Domain servers, exchange and other services locally. Not to mention integration for Teams/Slack, Telecom etc.

Not to mention, turn around for physical servers can take a while... if you don't have sufficient redundancy (more cost, etc), where as cloud has the redundancy/failover already allocated and distributed for more than just a single company.

It's increasingly common in networking too - let's just buy a virtual network from someone else than build your own - be that a multi-site office VPN, or a full on white-label service provider solution.

That part I'm a bit less inclined to understand... the added cost to a lot of those solutions just kind of feels incredibly excessive. I'm irked that it's becoming all but impossible to find dedicated AP hardware that isn't "cloud controlled". Engenius has options and you can self-host the control for Ubiquiti and others, but the trend is definitely there. And that's just APs, let alone routers and managed switch hardware, connecting to cloud "networks" and remote offices. I don't really do any of this for work, but my home setup is slightly more advanced than many.

On the flip side, would love to see some of these router appliances that can run opnsense gain just two sata ports and 3.5" drive bays... With an N305 and 64gb ram, you can run proxmox, opnsense and trunas on them for a great, single box for SOHO setups. I'll keep mine separate, but have a few friends than need more than consumer grade, but don't want to run sevveral separate (router, server, nas, etc) devices.


--
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tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
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Re: Proxmox 8 is out...
By: Tracker1 to niter3 on Sun Jul 09 2023 04:32 pm

What is the state of the Broadcom situation?

Apologies, but I don't know what this is "the Broadcom situation"

Broadcom buying of VMWare?
--
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What is the state of the Broadcom situation?

Apologies, but I don't know what this is "the Broadcom situation"

Broadcom buying of VMWare?

Ahh, I wasn't aware of it. Seems like a really weird pairing.


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Re: Re: Proxmox 8 is out...
By: tassiebob to niter3 on Sat Jul 08 2023 02:44 pm

It's increasingly common in networking too - let's just buy a virtual networ

Don t forget virtual routers. Let us all have our core routing done by virtual routers running on cheap VPS.

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Re: Proxmox 8 is out...
By: Tracker1 to Digital Man on Wed Jul 12 2023 03:44 pm

What is the state of the Broadcom situation?

Apologies, but I don't know what this is "the Broadcom situation"

Broadcom buying of VMWare?

Ahh, I wasn't aware of it. Seems like a really weird pairing.

I agree. It surprised me.
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Tracker1 wrote to Digital Man <=-

Ahh, I wasn't aware of it. Seems like a really weird pairing.

It feels like someone looking at VMWare's management and business, and
thinking they could do better. My gut feeling is that VMWare is going to
narrow their focus to large enterprises (since they stated that 80
percent of their revenues come from a tiny fraction of their customers)
and drop the less lucrative businesses.

To be fair, VMWare has a lot of product lines, and I'm sure some of them
aren't as profitable as large enterprise bare-metal virtualization.
Whether or not they could whittle down the product line and increase
market share in the large enterprise market remains to be seen. Cloud
should be eating their lunch right now, I know they have some hybrid
cloud offerings that are hoping to cash in on the cloud.

If I were working with another start-up, I'd seriously look at bare
QEMU or Proxmox (or OpenStack, or XCP-NG) for on-prem virtualization.
Cheap, solid, and supported. Harder to pass executive muster, though -
all CIOs know VMWare.


... Don't be frightened of cliches
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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If I were working with another start-up, I'd seriously look at bare
QEMU or Proxmox (or OpenStack, or XCP-NG) for on-prem virtualization. Cheap, solid, and supported. Harder to pass executive muster, though -
all CIOs know VMWare.

Ditto. My last employer ran pretty much everything on Proxmox (several hundred VM's). I run most of my home stuff on Proxmox. I don't think any of the large cloud providers use VMware...

Current employer uses VMware, but I suspect that came about as a package deal from Dell (as it's on Dell hardware) when Dell still owned VMware. They'll learn :-)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: TassieBob BBS, Hobart, Tasmania (21:3/169)

tassiebob wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Ditto. My last employer ran pretty much everything on Proxmox (several hundred VM's). I run most of my home stuff on Proxmox. I don't think
any of the large cloud providers use VMware...

Glad to hear about a commercial application of Proxmox. Were you
involved in support? I'd love to hear about their commercial support
offering from someone who used it.

Current employer uses VMware, but I suspect that came about as a
package deal from Dell (as it's on Dell hardware) when Dell still owned VMware. They'll learn :-)

vSphere definitely feels like a throwback to the LAN Era in the late
'80s and early '90s, when you'd get heated rivalries between Novell
Netware, Banyan Vines, MS LAN Manager - people knew *their* platform and
hated the rest. ESXi admins have that same vibe.



... All those updates, and still imperfect!
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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Glad to hear about a commercial application of Proxmox. Were you
involved in support? I'd love to hear about their commercial support
offering from someone who used it.

Nah, I wasn't in IT - I'm a network engineer working on service provider networks. I did have access to the IT proxmox cluster though and could create & admin my own VM's if I needed.

Most of the problems I remember with that compute cluster were with the storage. It was an HP storage thing I think and occasionally it'd wig out and cause breakage.

vSphere definitely feels like a throwback to the LAN Era in the late
'80s and early '90s, when you'd get heated rivalries between Novell Netware, Banyan Vines, MS LAN Manager - people knew *their* platform and hated the rest. ESXi admins have that same vibe.

It's been a while since I used VMware in anger, but I'm guessing it probably has some valuable features that other virtualisation platforms don't (more correctly don't /yet/). I'm also guessing that those features just aren't needed in many environments?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: TassieBob BBS, Hobart, Tasmania (21:3/169)