• Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+

    From Adept@21:2/108 to Nightfox on Wed Jun 7 19:11:51 2023
    Though I guess there's a difference between paying for servers, magaz supporting creators, streaming services, etc. than half-buying a car.

    Yeah, I think subscribing makes more sense in some cases, but personally I'd rather buy my car rather than to keep paying to borrow a car.

    These days, while I don't think I can legally drive here in Germany (valid US license, but I need to do things here), I've thought that it'd be fairly reasonable to get around with bikes, trains, scooters, etc., and then rent cars when wanting to go on longer trips.

    But, in that case, I'm more paying to not have to take care of parking the car or do maintenance on it.

    But, realistically, most people here likely live in a situation where getting by without a personal vehicle would be somewhere between "extremely hard" and "better have people who can drive you everywhere".

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  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Nightfox on Wed Jun 7 14:48:03 2023
    Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
    By: Nightfox to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Jun 06 2023 10:49 am

    I've never really wanted to lease a car, as it seems like a waste to continu nk the fewer bills you owe, the better off your are financially.

    I don't like the renting/leasing system, but given the uncertainity involving vehicles in Spain, many people is opting to rent instead of purchase.

    If the government suddenly decides to make your vehicle fleet illegal for the tasks you bought them for, you are screwed. If the vehicle fleet belongs to a renting company, you can just write the contract off paying a small penalty and go your merry way.

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  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Nightfox on Wed Jun 7 14:54:58 2023
    Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Jun 07 2023 09:10 am

    We have had self-driving vehicles for so long yet nobody was losing his mind about them until the microchip variant arrived.

    How do you define 'so long'? I only first started hearing about self-drivin -driving cars sometimes crashing due to errors & things. And I personally d


    "So long" would be an estimate of 5500 years.

    "Domestication of the horse most likely took place in central Asia prior to 3500 BC. [...] The most recent, but most irrefutable evidence of domestication comes from sites where horse remains were interred with chariots in graves of the Sintashta and Petrovka cultures c. 2100 BC.

    "

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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Arelor on Wed Jun 7 14:11:54 2023
    Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Jun 07 2023 02:48 pm

    I don't like the renting/leasing system, but given the uncertainity involving vehicles in Spain, many people is opting to rent instead of purchase.

    If the government suddenly decides to make your vehicle fleet illegal for the tasks you bought them for, you are screwed. If the vehicle fleet

    I'd think the only times you'd have to worry about a "fleet" of vehicles is if you own a business that uses a lot of vehicles (such as a car rental business etc).. Does this also affect people who just buy a car for themselves or their family in Spain?

    Nightfox
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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Arelor on Wed Jun 7 14:13:29 2023
    Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Jun 07 2023 02:54 pm

    We have had self-driving vehicles for so long yet nobody was
    losing his mind about them until the microchip variant arrived.

    How do you define 'so long'? I only first started hearing about
    self-drivin -driving cars sometimes crashing due to errors & things.
    And I personally d

    "So long" would be an estimate of 5500 years.

    "Domestication of the horse most likely took place in central Asia prior to 3500 BC. [...] The most recent, but most irrefutable evidence of domestication comes from sites where horse remains were interred with chariots in graves of the Sintashta and Petrovka cultures c. 2100 BC.


    Self-driving cars haven't been around for 5500 years...? Cars as we know them today have only been around for about 140 years..

    Nightfox
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  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Arelor on Wed Jun 7 18:41:00 2023
    Hello Arelor!

    ..but given the uncertainity
    involving vehicles in Spain, many people is opting to rent instead of purchase.

    WHAT is the "the uncertainty" of vehicles in Spain all about?


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  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Adept on Wed Jun 7 19:00:00 2023
    Hello Adept!

    I've never really wanted to lease a car, as it seems like a waste to
    continually pay for something.. As expensive as a car could be, I'd
    rather buy it and own it and not have a car payment (at least when I
    finish paying the loan, if I get a loan). I think the fewer bills you
    owe, the better off your are financially.

    Agreed, wholeheartedly, and yet the amount of subscriptions I have to things is much higher than it was not terribly long ago.

    Leasing could make better sense if you are contractor or
    operating a business. The monthly cost is a deductable expense
    (meaning, less taxable income) and the taxes paid on that
    qualify as a credit/rebate. With a lesser taxable income, you
    are reducing the taxes owing to the gov't. So, with a lease,
    you are basically paying yourself for the luxury of driving a
    new car for a few years.

    If you work for a company, and can arrange to be a contractor
    instead of an employee, the above advantages could apply.

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  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Nightfox on Wed Jun 7 19:09:00 2023
    Hello Nightfox!

    I've never really wanted to lease a car, as it seems like a waste to continually pay for something.. As expensive as a car could be, I'd
    rather buy it and own it and not have a car payment (at least when I
    finish paying the loan, if I get a loan). I think the fewer bills you
    owe, the better off your are financially.

    The problem with buying a new car up front are that the taxes
    have to be paid all at once. With a lease, the taxes get
    applied in monthly chunks for the duration of the lease. And,
    if you buy a new car that devalues quickly, you can buy the car
    at the end of lease (typically 4 yrs) for less than half its
    value at the time.

    And if you are contractor or self-emplyed, the lease is an
    expense. If you are not, start a company that justifies
    travel, and the lease can be your friend.





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  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Nightfox on Wed Jun 7 18:18:40 2023
    Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Jun 07 2023 02:11 pm

    Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Jun 07 2023 02:48 pm

    I don't like the renting/leasing system, but given the uncertainity involving vehicles in Spain, many people is opting to rent instead of purchase.

    If the government suddenly decides to make your vehicle fleet illegal f the tasks you bought them for, you are screwed. If the vehicle fleet

    I'd think the only times you'd have to worry about a "fleet" of vehicles is

    Nightfox
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    It pretty much does affect families too, but as far as I have seen families
    are just not buying new cars. Last time I walked into a car dealership this year all the salesmen were sitting alone playing with their thumbs.

    Adquisitive power has gone down the drain. Businesses, including family ones, can get into renting and leasing deals because they get tax advantages from them - fuel used for renting vehicles is tax deductible, but fuel used for company owned vehicles seems not to be in practice. A family is not so lucky.

    I think the strategy for the small guy these days is to just buy a cheap used car, or at least that is what I am hearing. If they make your car illegal is not as a bad loss as if they make your new Audi A8 illegal - not that people has the money to buy new middle or high-end cars so easily anyway.

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  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Nightfox on Wed Jun 7 18:20:13 2023
    Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Jun 07 2023 02:13 pm

    Self-driving cars haven't been around for 5500 years...? Cars as we know th

    Oh, but I was talking about self driving *vehicles*, which is exactly what you get when you put a horse and a chart together and teach the horse to pull the chart :-)

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  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Ogg on Wed Jun 7 18:39:38 2023
    Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
    By: Ogg to Arelor on Wed Jun 07 2023 06:41 pm

    WHAT is the "the uncertainty" of vehicles in Spain all about?

    There is political preasure enough that people is worried tolls will make vehicles impractical. There are lots of talk about tolls for entering and going out of towns, tolls in public roads and highways, that sort of thing. Politicians talk about it so much that you can be certain they will end up placing a toll for visiting the toilet. The question is *when*. Past that point I doubt you will want to get caught with a car.

    There is also a lot of talk about creating restricted traffic zones in which only new cars are allowed. The issue is if you buy a car today they may modify the restrictions in the near future so you won't be able to drive it to the places you want to drive through. Practical example: if your job is in a different town than your home and there is no public transport connecting them both, and your workplace is in a planned restricted zone, a car you buy today might not be allowed near your workplace in a matter of a few years. There are some scheduled roadmaps put by politicians, but trust on politician's promises is running very low.

    Nobody can afford vehicles that are future-proof beyond a select wealthy few. The end goal for politicians is to have all the light vehicles be electric, but right now virtually nobody can afford those. Heck, a number of people is having trouble getting food and diapers for their family already. The will for taking risks buying something expensive they may ban is at an historical minimum.

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  • From esc@21:4/173 to Ogg on Wed Jun 7 17:14:35 2023
    Leasing could make better sense if you are contractor or
    operating a business. The monthly cost is a deductable expense
    (meaning, less taxable income) and the taxes paid on that
    qualify as a credit/rebate. With a lesser taxable income, you
    are reducing the taxes owing to the gov't. So, with a lease,
    you are basically paying yourself for the luxury of driving a
    new car for a few years.

    My wife and I lease our main car. The reason is because we enjoy getting a new car every three years with zero hassle, and we don't have to pay for any maintenance.

    Yes, it's a money pit, but it's not much different from the total cost of ownership over a period of time anyway, particularly with how expensive maintenance can be.

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  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Jun 7 16:38:52 2023
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Blue White <=-

    I hadn't heard of that, but they did have an annoying BONG to remind
    you of a detached seatbelt, just like any other car of the time.

    My 2016 automobile still does that. :)


    ... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.
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  • From paulie420@21:2/150 to Cavemeat on Wed Jun 7 21:00:56 2023
    The idea of companies using leases and subscription models to suck more and more money and control out of the end user always scared me. I'm committed to buying older used cars to avoid it.

    1oo%. While I do drive new[er] vehicles, these issues are really bothering me as of late - what sucks is that we're already here; these things are coming whether we like it or not. These BAC sensors are coming, and damn right some companies are probably going to overstep and install 'features' that contact police, use interior cameras and etc etc... I'm hoping for some companies to take a stand against that sort of thing, but in the US anyway - we gotta wake up and realize whats in Bidens infrastructure bill.

    Hell, they might not even MEAN for these technologies to be so bad - everyone agrees that automatic-braking is a valuable and good feature; I *love* that the bill says that feature needs to protect 85% of all 64mph and lower accidents - but lots of the things they are asking for AREN'T these technologies that everyone agrees with...



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  • From paulie420@21:2/150 to Adept on Wed Jun 7 21:06:10 2023
    Agreed, wholeheartedly, and yet the amount of subscriptions I have to things is much higher than it was not terribly long ago.

    You know what I started doing? It's almost stupid and certainly isn't convenient - but I use prepaid VISA cards for my subscriptions - think Netflix, Apple whatever, etc etc... this way at least I see them month to month and have to physically fund the card for them to continue.

    I feel like it helps me decide which ones are really needed and which ones are just fluff that I shouldn't be spending on. I use a GreenDot and like the feedback it gives me... even if I feel like a hillbilly having to reload it at times. :P

    Though I guess there's a difference between paying for servers,
    magazines, supporting creators, streaming services, etc. than
    half-buying a car.

    I dunno - with vehicle prices being what they are today, leases aren't *always* a bad thing... its all relative to the price of the vehicle [Which now can be closer to 100,000 than the other way around!] and the price of the lease vs. any end-of-lease fees [mileage overage costs, etc]...

    I think leases might be a decent way to pay for a car, especially as we start switching over to electric vehicles since we don't -really- know how long batteries will last and other factors.

    Main point - these vehicles cost too damn much!!



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  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to esc on Thu Jun 8 06:11:49 2023
    Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
    By: esc to Ogg on Wed Jun 07 2023 05:14 pm

    My wife and I lease our main car. The reason is because we enjoy getting a n

    I personally consider switching cars every three years a waste of natural resources. It is the dark side of consummism at its uglier.

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  • From Digital Man to Arelor on Fri Jun 9 19:17:03 2023
    Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
    By: Arelor to esc on Thu Jun 08 2023 06:11 am

    Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
    By: esc to Ogg on Wed Jun 07 2023 05:14 pm

    My wife and I lease our main car. The reason is because we enjoy getting a n

    I personally consider switching cars every three years a waste of natural resources. It is the dark side of consummism at its uglier.

    Someone (like me) will happily buy that lease return for pennies on the dollar and drive it for a couple decades. The natural resources are conserved (or at least, effectively utilized) and the Earth keeps on spinning. :-)
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  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Digital Man on Sat Jun 10 04:15:07 2023
    Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
    By: Digital Man to Arelor on Fri Jun 09 2023 07:17 pm

    I personally consider switching cars every three years a waste of natural resources. It is the dark side of consummism at its uglier.

    Someone (like me) will happily buy that lease return for pennies on the dollar and
    --

    Sure, but that does not erase the fact that somebody else is switching cars and wasting natural resources like crazy.

    Fun part is then politicians blame you for using an old car and praise the guys using
    new cars despite the fact they are the ones wasting natural resources.

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  • From Utopian Galt@21:4/108 to Digital Man on Sat Jun 10 11:27:18 2023
    BY: Digital Man (21:1/183)

    |11DM|09> |10Someone (like me) will happily buy that lease return for pennies on the|07
    |11DM|09> |10dollar and drive it for a couple decades. The natural resources are|07
    |11DM|09> |10conserved (or at least, effectively utilized) and the Earth keeps on|07
    |11DM|09> |10spinning. :-)|07
    I might get myself a recent car in 3-4 years, but paying off car loans are not fun. I usually aspire to drive a car up to like 150-160k miles and then decide what else to do with it.


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  • From Ogg@21:3/110.10 to esc on Sun Jun 11 13:21:00 2023
    Hello esc!

    ** On Wednesday 07.06.23 - 17:14, esc wrote to Ogg:

    ...So, with a lease, you are basically paying yourself
    for the luxury of driving a new car for a few years.

    My wife and I lease our main car. The reason is because we
    enjoy getting a new car every three years with zero hassle,
    and we don't have to pay for any maintenance.

    I've leased 3 terms in a row for a total of 12yrs. I bought the
    last leased vehicle.


    Yes, it's a money pit, but it's not much different from the
    total cost of ownership over a period of time anyway,
    particularly with how expensive maintenance can be.

    I appreciated gaining the reliabilty of a new car. But I was
    still on the hook for regular/scheduled maintenance.

    Wrt money pit, it probably works out the same if one buys a new
    car outright and maybe sells that to replace it with another
    new a few years later. For some, making the arrangements for
    the selling of old is a hassle. It would be for me.

    But, for some, buying "good" used cars and maintaining them
    costs far less over time compared to the above. I have a
    friend who has purchased quite a few different used cars - but
    he's a pretty good DIY-guy and does not mind doing basic
    repairs on his own. I believe that he has spent less than a 1/
    4 in buying the used cars over the years than I spent in
    leasing 3 in 12 yrs.

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  • From Ogg@21:3/110.10 to Arelor on Sun Jun 11 13:27:00 2023
    Hello Arelor!

    ** On Wednesday 07.06.23 - 18:39, Arelor wrote to Ogg:

    WHAT is the "the uncertainty" of vehicles in Spain all about?

    There is political preasure enough that people is worried
    tolls will make vehicles impractical. There are lots of
    talk about tolls for entering and going out of towns, tolls
    in public roads and highways, that sort of thing. ...

    [...]

    There is also a lot of talk about creating restricted
    traffic zones in which only new cars are allowed. The issue
    is if you buy a car today they may modify the restrictions
    in the near future so you won't be able to drive it to the
    places you want to drive through.

    There should be a public outcry WHILE such things are being
    "talked about" by the gov't.

    The very real-life examples you mention would be such a thing
    to cite.


    Nobody can afford vehicles that are future-proof beyond a
    select wealthy few. The end goal for politicians is to have
    all the light vehicles be electric, but right now virtually
    nobody can afford those. Heck, a number of people is having
    trouble getting food and diapers for their family already.
    The will for taking risks buying something expensive they
    may ban is at an historical minimum.

    Again.. that very scenario ought to be the slap in the head to
    those detached-from-reality politicians.


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  • From esc@21:4/173 to Arelor on Thu Jun 8 21:40:42 2023
    I personally consider switching cars every three years a waste of natural resources. It is the dark side of consummism at its uglier.

    Thanks for the feedback. Turns out the dealership has no problem selling a 3 year old car with low miles and completed maintenance. Lots of people are in the market for those. But I'm just some evil consumer, so fuck me right?

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  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to esc on Mon Jun 12 04:00:36 2023
    Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
    By: esc to Arelor on Thu Jun 08 2023 09:40 pm

    Thanks for the feedback. Turns out the dealership has no problem selling a 3

    Well, not that the end user of an used car has a way of knowing but consider this:

    If I sell my car because I don't need it anymore or because I need a different one (say, I need to move merchandise between warehouses and my car is a peanut), when somebody buys the used car we have managed to reduce the number of cars that needed to be manufactured by one.

    If I sell my car because I am wealthy and posh and can't let my friends see me driving anything which is not the latest trend, then I get a new trendy car, then sell the old one, we have two active cars. So far so good. HOwever if I do that once every three years what I have is (for the sake of simplicity) two active cars at a given time for the ecological cost of a manufactured car every three years (when cars can be made to last 10 years without too much work).

    The fact I can be wasteful myself arguing that somebody can take advantage of my crumbs is not comforting and does not really solve the problem.

    I see this often with used electronics and get the argument that it is ok to replace functioning electronics with newer models because you can sell the old devices and thus you are not increasing the number of devices that need manufacturing. What happens instead is some of the used electronics hits the second hand market and are bought but a significant part is wasted partially or totally.

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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Ogg on Mon Jun 12 11:56:46 2023
    new a few years later. For some, making the arrangements for
    the selling of old is a hassle. It would be for me.

    My brother once rented a couch, as he and his wife worked through what furniture to actually get for the place (it was... a challenge).

    And I think he phrased it along the lines of, he wasn't paying for having a couch for a short period of time, he was paying for a couch and to be able to have it disappear when no longer needed.

    With cars... I've only _really_ dealt with selling one, and that was before moving to Germany, where I posted my car on Facebook, at a price below value, with the intent that someone would take it off my hands at that price.

    It worked quite well, though with some stupidity in tow. E.g., first response was, "I'll buy it right now if you sell it for $x less", and my response, either actual or in my head was, "I've had this up for two hours and have 30 seemingly-serious offers. Your offer is laughable."

    And then, for the guy who I ended up selling it to, he did his due diligence, then attempted to haggle, at which point I said that I had several fallback offers available while knowing it was worth more than what I was selling it for, and if he didn't want it at that price, thanks for wasting my time but I'll sell it to someone else.

    Probably not the best way to sell cars, but when trying to have a car up until 2 or 3 days before leaving the country, it worked pretty well.

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  • From Ogg@21:3/110.10 to Arelor on Mon Jun 12 19:57:00 2023
    Hello Arelor!

    ** On Saturday 10.06.23 - 04:15, Arelor wrote to Digital Man:

    Someone (like me) will happily buy that lease return for
    pennies on the dollar and --

    Sure, but that does not erase the fact that somebody else
    is switching cars and wasting natural resources like crazy.

    But cars in general corrode and "return to the earth", no? :D


    Fun part is then politicians blame you for using an old car
    and praise the guys using new cars despite the fact they
    are the ones wasting natural resources.

    Not long ago, Ontario had an "Emissions Test" that every
    vehicle had to pass every 2 yrs. I think it was in force for
    about 8 yrs, and then it was scrapped. The system penalized old
    cars (for getting old), and penalized new cars (for passing a
    needless test plus a fee for the test!)


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  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to Ogg on Tue Jun 20 14:59:53 2023
    Ogg wrote to Arelor <=-

    Not long ago, Ontario had an "Emissions Test" that every
    vehicle had to pass every 2 yrs. I think it was in force for
    about 8 yrs, and then it was scrapped. The system penalized old
    cars (for getting old), and penalized new cars (for passing a
    needless test plus a fee for the test!)

    Louisville, KY, had a money-making scheme like that several years back that lasted for a few years. It lost favor, and was eventually replaced with "reformulated gas" when a local news station exposed that, despite it being touted as not a money making scheme, people were getting rich off of it.



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