• NAT and ISPs

    From Flavio Bessa@4:801/188 to All on Sun Mar 13 23:13:38 2022
    Hello folks,

    Our BBSing experiences in Brazil are being affected by a decision taken by some ISPs a few months ago: Many of them are not offering public IPv4 addresses anymore, which is affecting the capabilities of some systems to be accessed.

    That happened with Ninho do Abutre, from our fellow sysop Mauro Veiga.

    We are trying to come up with solutions to his issue... The only things I can think of would be migrating his system to IPV6 (if available by his ISP) or establishing a VPN towards another system in the cloud with public IPv4s available.

    Has any of you faced a similar issue? Any other things that we can try it out?

    Regards,
    Flavio.

    ... I don't have the time for a hobby. I have a computer.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (macOS/64)
    * Origin: Saturn's Orbit BBS - Private System (4:801/188)
  • From deon@3:633/509 to Flavio Bessa on Mon Mar 14 15:27:04 2022
    Re: NAT and ISPs
    By: Flavio Bessa to All on Sun Mar 13 2022 11:13 pm

    Howdy,

    We are trying to come up with solutions to his issue... The only things I can think of would be migrating his system to IPV6 (if
    available by his ISP) or establishing a VPN towards another system in the cloud with public IPv4s available.

    Has any of you faced a similar issue? Any other things that we can try it out?

    Both methods would work well...



    ...δεσ∩
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Flavio Bessa on Mon Mar 14 11:33:14 2022
    Hello Flavio,

    On Sunday March 13 2022 23:13, you wrote to All:

    Our BBSing experiences in Brazil are being affected by a decision
    taken by some ISPs a few months ago: Many of them are not offering
    public IPv4 addresses anymore, which is affecting the capabilities of
    some systems to be accessed.

    I am not surprised. This sword of Damocles has been hanging over Fidonet for many years now and I have written Fidonews articles about it. My surprise is rather that we have seen so little of it so far. The well of IPv4 addresses ran dry eleven years ago and it was only a matter of time to see ISPs forced to no longer issue public IPv4 addresses to customers. In 2014 the INO4 nodelist flag was introduced in anticipation of this.

    That happened with Ninho do Abutre, from our fellow sysop Mauro Veiga.

    We are trying to come up with solutions to his issue... The only
    things I can think of would be migrating his system to IPV6 (if
    available by his ISP)

    IPv6 is the obvious answer. If the ISP does not offer IPv6 but stops issuing public IPv4 addresses nonetheless, it is time to switch ISP.

    Running a Fidonet node that can only accept incoming calls over IPv6 is very well doable. Five years ago I ran a couple of experiments to prepare for exactly this situation. The situation that my ISP would convert me to a so called DS-Lite connection. It didn't happen yet, my ISP still provides me with a full Dual Stack connection, but I am pepaired.

    You can find my Fidonews articles about the DS-Lite Emulation Experiments here:

    http://www.vlist.eu/downloads/fidonews/myarticles/dsltxp.art http://www.vlist.eu/downloads/fidonews/myarticles/dsltxp2.art http://www.vlist.eu/downloads/fidonews/myarticles/dsltxpr2.art http://www.vlist.eu/downloads/fidonews/myarticles/dsltsol.art http://www.vlist.eu/downloads/fidonews/myarticles/dsltxp21.art

    You and the sysops in your region are invited to join the IPv6 echo. There you can find the IPv6 gurus that can help sysops set up their systems for IPv6. The IPv6 echo is available from 1:320/219 and many other systems in Fidonet. If you want we can set up a direct link for the purpose.

    or establishing a VPN towards another system in the cloud with public IPv4s available.

    I have no experience with that but I would recommend the IPv6 way if possible at all. IPv6 is the future and work-arounds like the above will only become more problematic when the IPv4 addresses are becoming even more scarse. The going price for a public IPv4 address has risen above EUR50 and this will have effect on the cost of such a VPN service.

    IPv6 is free. A he.net tunnel is still free...

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/360 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Mar 14 17:09:15 2022
    On 14.3.2022 12.33, Michiel van der Vlist wrote:

    IPv6 is free. A he.net tunnel is still free...

    You need a public ipv4 for a he.net tunnel. So it wont help in this case.

    'Tommi

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0
    * Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Flavio Bessa@4:801/188 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Mar 14 11:40:13 2022
    On 14 Mar 2022, Michiel van der Vlist said the following...

    IPv6 is the obvious answer. If the ISP does not offer IPv6 but stops issuing public IPv4 addresses nonetheless, it is time to switch ISP.

    In case of Mauro, it seems that where he lives there is only one ISP offering services, but we will check if they have IPv6 capabilities.

    You can find my Fidonews articles about the DS-Lite Emulation
    Experiments here:

    Thanks a lot, I will read them!

    You and the sysops in your region are invited to join the IPv6 echo.
    There you can find the IPv6 gurus that can help sysops set up their systems for IPv6. The IPv6 echo is available from 1:320/219 and many
    other systems in Fidonet. If you want we can set up a direct link for
    the purpose.

    That's good! I believe we have this echo around, but I will check. I will have to convert the R80 Hub to allow IPv6 calls first - we can start from there.

    IPv6 is free. A he.net tunnel is still free...

    Thanks a lot for the guidance!

    Flavio

    ... Do vegetarians eat animal crackers?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (macOS/64)
    * Origin: Saturn's Orbit BBS - Private System (4:801/188)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tommi Koivula on Mon Mar 14 16:38:54 2022
    Hello Tommi,

    On Monday March 14 2022 17:09, you wrote to me:

    IPv6 is free. A he.net tunnel is still free...

    You need a public ipv4 for a he.net tunnel. So it wont help in this
    case.

    Arrghh, you are right! How could I forget? Pity SixXs has closed down. Their Ayiya tunnel did work from behing a NAT.

    Still, while it will not work for Mauro, Flavio can use a tunnel to make his hub IPv6 capable...


    'Tommi

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0
    * Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/1 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Mar 14 18:59:13 2022
    Hello, Michiel van der Vlist.
    On 14/03/2022 17.38 you wrote:

    Hello Tommi,
    On Monday March 14 2022 17:09, you wrote to me:
    IPv6 is free. A he.net tunnel is still free...
    You need a public ipv4 for a he.net tunnel. So it wont help in this
    case.
    Arrghh, you are right! How could I forget?

    Time to return the t-shirt now.

    Tommi

    ---
    * Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/1.0)
  • From Fernando Toledo@4:902/26 to Flavio Bessa on Mon Mar 14 14:57:56 2022
    El 13/3/22 a las 23:13, Flavio Bessa escribió:
    Hello folks,

    Our BBSing experiences in Brazil are being affected by a decision taken by some ISPs a few months ago: Many of them are not offering public IPv4 addresses anymore, which is affecting the capabilities of some systems to be accessed.

    That happened with Ninho do Abutre, from our fellow sysop Mauro Veiga.

    We are trying to come up with solutions to his issue... The only things I can think of would be migrating his system to IPV6 (if available by his ISP) or establishing a VPN towards another system in the cloud with public IPv4s available.

    Has any of you faced a similar issue? Any other things that we can try it out?

    Regards,
    Flavio.

    ... I don't have the time for a hobby. I have a computer.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (macOS/64)
    * Origin: Saturn's Orbit BBS - Private System (4:801/188)

    hola Flavio, aca en Argentina el servicio de fibra de claro hace lo mismo..varios clientes salen como misma ip CGNAT), pero por un costo
    adicional (muy poco por cierto) te da una ipv4 publica asignada a tu
    modem y podes ponerlo como DMZ y listo (asi lo tengo hoy yo).

    No se si mauro podra hacer eso.
    Sino lo de la vpn no es complicado..la hace contra algun vps y listo


    Con respecto al mail, synchornet al menos tiene un servicio de mail te
    hace relay. Porque en eeuu tambien hay muchos proveedores que bloquean
    el puerto 25. entonces (avisando a Rob de sbbs) podria habilitar eso.
    Pero te lo forwardea a una direccion y puerto publico

    ipv6 lo veo verde, si el isp le dan una direccion mejor, sino puede
    hacer un tunnel via he.net porqu ejemplo y sale con ipv6, el tema de que saliendo por ese tunnel tenes un lag importante.
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Dock Sud BBS - http://bbs.docksud.com.ar (4:902/26)
  • From Daniel PATH@2:371/52.1 to Flavio Bessa on Mon Mar 14 19:53:23 2022
    //Hello Flavio,//

    on *14.03.22* at *2:13:38* You wrote in area *FN_SYSOP*
    to *All* about *"NAT and ISPs"*.

    Hello folks,

    Our BBSing experiences in Brazil are being affected by a decision taken
    by some ISPs a few months ago: Many of them are not offering public IPv4 addresses anymore, which is affecting the capabilities of some systems to be accessed.

    here they are doing the same, but if you ask them to give a public ipv4 address (for example because you have cameras in your house) they allow it and switch it back.
    maybe ask the provider.

    Regards,
    Daniel PATH
    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: Roon's Point (2:371/52.1)
  • From Nigel Reed@1:124/5016 to Flavio Bessa on Mon Mar 14 17:47:26 2022
    On Sun, 13 Mar 2022 23:13:38 -0300
    "Flavio Bessa" <flavio.bessa@4:801/188> wrote:

    Hello folks,

    Our BBSing experiences in Brazil are being affected by a decision
    taken by some ISPs a few months ago: Many of them are not offering
    public IPv4 addresses anymore, which is affecting the capabilities of
    some systems to be accessed.

    Have you tried contacting the ISP to explain your situation and require
    an exemption? Especially if you quickly throw up an IPv6 tunnel to show
    that you're using it that way, as well as for the BBS.

    Failing that, VPN seems the best way to go. You might even consider
    getting your own VPS and either hosting the BBS there instead of
    locally, or use that for your tunnel endpoint. It's an extra cost, but sometimes that's the price of a hobby.

    Good luck in finding a suitable arrangement, but check with the ISP
    first.
    --
    End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
    telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (1:124/5016)
  • From Flavio Bessa@4:801/188 to Fernando Toledo on Mon Mar 14 21:04:14 2022
    hola Flavio, aca en Argentina el servicio de fibra de claro hace lo mismo..varios clientes salen como misma ip CGNAT), pero por un costo adicional (muy poco por cierto) te da una ipv4 publica asignada a tu modem y podes ponerlo como DMZ y listo (asi lo tengo hoy yo).


    No se si mauro podra hacer eso.

    Desgraciadamente no, donde vive solo hay este proveedor disponible y ellos no ofrecen este servicio.

    ... Multitasking: Reading in the bathroom

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (macOS/64)
    * Origin: Saturn's Orbit BBS - Private System (4:801/188)
  • From Flavio Bessa@4:801/188 to Daniel PATH on Mon Mar 14 21:04:51 2022
    On 14 Mar 2022, Daniel PATH said the following...

    here they are doing the same, but if you ask them to give a public ipv4 address (for example because you have cameras in your house) they allow
    it and switch it back.
    maybe ask the provider.

    Unfortunately the provider does not offer this kind of service, but
    perhaps IPv6 might be available. I will check...

    ... Press SPACEBAR once to abort, or twice to save changes

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (macOS/64)
    * Origin: Saturn's Orbit BBS - Private System (4:801/188)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Flavio Bessa on Fri Mar 18 13:27:45 2022
    Hello Flavio,

    On Monday March 14 2022 21:04, you wrote to Daniel PATH:

    but perhaps IPv6 might be available. I will check...

    And? Do they offer IPv6?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Flavio Bessa@4:801/188 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Mar 21 21:45:59 2022
    On 18 Mar 2022, Michiel van der Vlist said the following...

    And? Do they offer IPv6?

    I asked, he did not answer me yet...

    ... Old musicians never die. They just decompose!

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (macOS/64)
    * Origin: Saturn's Orbit BBS - Private System (4:801/188)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Flavio Bessa on Wed Mar 23 14:41:00 2022
    On 03-13-22 23:13, Flavio Bessa wrote to All <=-

    Hello folks,

    Our BBSing experiences in Brazil are being affected by a decision taken
    by some ISPs a few months ago: Many of them are not offering public
    IPv4 addresses anymore, which is affecting the capabilities of some systems to be accessed.

    I think we'll be seeing more of this. :(

    That happened with Ninho do Abutre, from our fellow sysop Mauro Veiga.

    We are trying to come up with solutions to his issue... The only things
    I can think of would be migrating his system to IPV6 (if available by
    his ISP) or establishing a VPN towards another system in the cloud with public IPv4s available.

    Has any of you faced a similar issue? Any other things that we can try
    it out?

    I've only faced it in a self inflicted sense, because of the sheer number of systems I want to be Internet accessible. And both solutions work. I'm fully native on IPv6, and my BBSs are IPv6 reachable. I also run a VPN to route a /16 of IPv4, which I use for select systems. So you can say I'm proof of both solutions being viable.

    IPv6 requires either your ISP to provide native IPv6 connectivity (the ideal), or use a tunnel service like he.net. For IPv4, you will need to establish a server somewhere, to act as your VPN router, and use a VPN system like OpenVPN or Wireguard. The VPS provider may only give you a single public IP, but you can then use iptables (assuming a Linux server) to add NAT and port forward to your BBS.

    And that illustrates yet another solution - host the BBS on a VPS in the cloud, which will solve your IPv4 issue as well.



    ... Copper wire was invented by two Ferengi fighting over a penny.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Wed Mar 23 11:40:23 2022
    Hello Tony,

    On Wednesday March 23 2022 14:41, you wrote to Flavio Bessa:

    Our BBSing experiences in Brazil are being affected by a decision
    taken by some ISPs a few months ago: Many of them are not
    offering public IPv4 addresses anymore, which is affecting the
    capabilities of some systems to be accessed.

    I think we'll be seeing more of this. :(

    No doubt we eill see more of it. I see no reason for the ":(" though.

    IPv6 is the future and we have seen that it is very well doable to run a Fidonet node on IPv6 without a public IPv4 address. The list of IPv6 capable nodes has grown to over a hundred and that is enough for critical mass. What should have happened ten years ago will now become unavoidable. With a going rate of EUR 50 for a public IPv4 address providers that have run out of IPv4 will have no choice but to offer IPv6 to their customers.

    If you have any IPv4 to spare, better sell it now before the bubble bursts. :-)

    ... Copper wire was invented by two Ferengi fighting over a penny.

    Really? The Belgians say is was invented by the Dutch...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Mar 25 20:09:00 2022
    On 03-23-22 11:40, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    No doubt we eill see more of it. I see no reason for the ":(" though.

    It does entrench attitudes and behaviours though.

    IPv6 is the future and we have seen that it is very well doable to run
    a Fidonet node on IPv6 without a public IPv4 address. The list of IPv6 capable nodes has grown to over a hundred and that is enough for
    critical mass. What should have happened ten years ago will now become unavoidable. With a going rate of EUR 50 for a public IPv4 address providers that have run out of IPv4 will have no choice but to offer
    IPv6 to their customers.

    It's coming sooner or later (here for some of us).

    If you have any IPv4 to spare, better sell it now before the bubble bursts. :-)

    Got plenty, none of it's mine though. My /28 belongs to a networking group, and my /24 belongs to ARDC.

    ... Copper wire was invented by two Ferengi fighting over a penny.

    Really? The Belgians say is was invented by the Dutch...

    Hmm, not sure what that's about. :P


    ... How would someone else do it?
    === MultiMail/Win v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Sun Mar 27 14:33:02 2022

    Hello Tony,

    On Friday March 25 2022 20:09, you wrote to me:

    If you have any IPv4 to spare, better sell it now before the
    bubble bursts. :-)

    Got plenty, none of it's mine though. My /28 belongs to a networking group, and my /24 belongs to ARDC.

    That /24 may not last forever. ARDC has already sold a substantial part of their original /8 and with a going price of $50 for an IPv4 address they may be tempted to sell more before the bubble burst.

    It does not take a crystal ball to see that the IPv4 trade is a bubble that WILL burst in the foreseeable future.

    ... Copper wire was invented by two Ferengi fighting over a
    penny.

    Really? The Belgians say is was invented by the Dutch...

    Hmm, not sure what that's about. :P

    Do Australians make jokes about New Zealanders and vice versa? It is the same between the Dutch and the Belgians...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Andre Robitaille@1:154/70 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Mar 27 08:25:48 2022
    Do Australians make jokes about New Zealanders and vice versa? It is the same between the Dutch and the Belgians...

    Does that really count though? Everybody makes fun of the Dutch.


    - Andre
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org (1:154/70)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Andre Robitaille on Sun Mar 27 16:16:22 2022
    Hello Andre,

    On Sunday March 27 2022 08:25, you wrote to me:

    Do Australians make jokes about New Zealanders and vice versa? It is
    the same between the Dutch and the Belgians...

    Does that really count though? Everybody makes fun of the Dutch.

    Ze kunnen beter over je fiets lullen, dan over je lul fietsen.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Mar 28 18:05:12 2022
    On 27/03/2022 23:33, Michiel van der Vlist : Tony Langdon wrote:

    MvdV> Do Australians make jokes about New Zealanders and vice versa?

    Most definitely.

    MvdV> It is the same between the Dutch and the Belgians...

    --
    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
    * Origin: Narrabri, NSW (3:640/305)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Apr 1 19:57:00 2022
    On 03-27-22 14:33, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    That /24 may not last forever. ARDC has already sold a substantial part of their original /8 and with a going price of $50 for an IPv4 address they may be tempted to sell more before the bubble burst.

    True, see what happens. :) Hopefully the ham developers will embrace IPv6 more. Newer software, like the M17 infrastructure and IP clients (e.g. DroidStar) do support IPv6, and my M17 reflector is IPv6 capable and had an AAAA record.

    It does not take a crystal ball to see that the IPv4 trade is a bubble that WILL burst in the foreseeable future.

    Yes, there will be a point where everything goes IPv6 and the remains of IPv5 will be little islands connected via IPv6.

    Do Australians make jokes about New Zealanders and vice versa? It is
    the same between the Dutch and the Belgians...

    Yeah we do, for jokes about New Zealanders, it's usually got something to do with sheep. ;)


    ... The answers will be found in the logs.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)