Hello Alexander,

<skipped>

dream of of your place in history as the creator of this Eurasian
Union.

And an independent sovereign Ukraine with a government you can deal
with is the key. For the core around which the Eurasian Union has
to be built, is the very same core whose disintegration doomed the
Soviet Union -- Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Ukraine. Alone,
these four states, would already be the core of a Eurasian Union.
But if the globalized American dominated west swallows Ukraine it
can never be.

.. with a government, but with the government that is democratically elected and is supported by all the Ukrainian people, not only one part. Only blind cannot see that Ukraine has been split in two parts for a
long time. This split has a long history. If you are interested who
burned the USSR civilians in WWII on the lands occupied by fascists you will know that those people were not Germans, but they were western Ukrainians who served as Nazi police. In short, two parts of Ukraine are divided by hatred, and democracy and elections _were_ the only thing to keep them together as a state. When the results of elections were
tramped by the Kiev's events in 2014 it became clear that the only way available for such an Ukraine is not a building of a strong single
state, but a war. Those Americans (senator Mc Cain - you are the first!) who inspired Ukrainian people to overthrow the elected President and Government are actually responsible for the blood that flows there now.

Partitions have never worked. In any area of the world. At no
time in history. The division in Vietnam did not last. The division
in Korea will one day come to an end. The division in Palestine will
also come to an end at some point in time. India and Pakistan will
not be divided forever over Kashmir (although Muslims and Hindus will
remain divided forever). Ireland and Northern Ireland will one day
rejoin as one. Yet we see the possible partition of not only Ukraine,
but also Syria, taking place.

What is happening, and why is it happening?

You're Vladimir Putin and you cannot allow Ukraine to join either
NATO or the European Union. And you won't. The military force you
have assembled on its eastern borders is the stick. But once there
is a Ukrainian government you can deal with, you have an even
mightier carrot to wield.

It's is provocative and mean to compare Ukraine with an animal that is directed by Russia with a carrot. The main concern of Russia is millions of (Russian) Ukrainians that do not support the things that happened in Kiev in the spring of 2014. Actually when President Yanukovich was overthrown by the crowd in Kiev, these people were robbed of their
choice and their right to choose their destiny.

The people want peace, not war. For decades the people of Ukraine
were at peace with both themselves and their neighbors. What happened?
How did the people of Ukraine suddenly find themselves at odds with
not just themselves, but everybody else as well?

Let the European Union and its Troika strong-arm banking enforcers
lay their severe economic demands on the table so that all the
Ukrainian people understand that their "austerity" will mean
poverty and hardship in the service of their "fiscal
responsibility."

Ukrainians see it now. The facking psychopaths that captured the power, like rabid germs, have actually dismantled the Ukrainian economy and the balance between two parts of Ukrainians. And in addition they created a bloody wall that has made the things much more difficult to solve.

It is an oil war. That is the only explanation I can come up with
that makes any modicum of sense. How can a people who had done fine
for decades suddenly opt for war when war was never necessary?

And then you offer your alternative. If Ukraine joins the Eurasian
Union, Russia will not merely lend it the money to carry its debt
in return for austerity. It will wipe out the debt entire by
purchasing the Crimea from Ukraine. You're Vladimir Putin. With the
stakes this high you can afford to do it.

The problem is not is Crimea, the problem is in the inhabitant of the Crimea. The West must understand that it is a propaganda lie that those people had voted for separation from Ukraine under Russia's threats and gun barrels. The West must understand that even the bitter truth is
better than a lie. The West must understand what the Crimean population really think about the situation on the peninsula. Then it will stop
save these people from themselves.

I do not know, and can only venture to guess, but the population
of Crimea (before any vote was taken) was probably 90% to 95% Russian
speakers. Am I right? I'm willing to bet I am not far off.

Language defines a culture of a people. I know this being Cajun.
It is not about race or nationality. Society and culture are two
different things.

You're Vladimir Putin, formerly of the KGB. You're Vladimir Putin,
and if you've learned nothing else there, you've learned how to
make an offer that can't be refused.

If the US thinks that Ukrainian should join the West they should give
the same right to the second part of Ukraine, which wants another way. That will be democracy. We live in 21st century, and we should accept divorces rather that killing our wives when they are going to leave us.

Ukraine must be allowed to be Ukraine. Nobody is boss of Ukrainians
except Ukrainians themselves. As such, Ukrainians must be allowed to
decide their own future. For themselves.

--Lee

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 27.10.2015 20:27

ak>> keep them together as a state. When the results of elections were
ak>> tramped by the Kiev's events in 2014 it became clear that the only
ak>> way available for such an Ukraine is not a building of a strong
ak>> single state, but a war. Those Americans (senator Mc Cain - you
ak>> are the first!) who inspired Ukrainian people to overthrow the
ak>> elected President and Government are actually responsible for the
ak>> blood that flows there now.

LL> Partitions have never worked. In any area of the world. At no time
LL> in history.

The matter is not in partitions themselves, but in people's mind. Like
some atoms are stable, but some tend to fall apart. If two part of
population extremely don't like each other and want to separate it is
better to separate. It will be a natural and therefore long-life
separation. For instance, the US, Australia, India etc separated from
Britain healthily. It would have been bad if Britain had managed to
drown them in blood and remain unity.

But when separation is made only by fucking ambitious politicians (like Yeltsin, Yatsenuk etc( it is unhealthy separation. The USSR had
separated mostly in this way. That's why gravity between
eastern/southern Ukraine and Russia is much stronger than it is with
western part of Ukraine. _Every healthy country should have its own
gravity center_ which attracts all the country.

LL> The division in Vietnam did not last. The division in Korea will
LL> one day come to an end.

These divisions were made by politicians. Vietnam parts remained close mentally. That's why their integration was very probable. Korea's parts
became very different and most probably incompatible.

LL> The division in Palestine will also come to an end at some point in
LL> time.

No, the hatred polarized people there, and ultra-nationalists are still
in power.

LL> India and Pakistan will not be divided forever over Kashmir
LL> (although Muslims and Hindus will remain divided forever). Ireland
LL> and Northern Ireland will one day rejoin as one.

No chance if the occupants outnumber the local people greatly.

LL> Yet we see the possible partition of not only Ukraine, but also
LL> Syria, taking place.

Syria was made artificially from different people groups. It was OK,
when the Arabs were peaceful shepherds.

NS>>> You're Vladimir Putin and you cannot allow Ukraine to join either
NS>>> NATO or the European Union. And you won't. The military force you
NS>>> have assembled on its eastern borders is the stick. But once
NS>>> there is a Ukrainian government you can deal with, you have an
NS>>> even mightier carrot to wield.

ak>> It's is provocative and mean to compare Ukraine with an animal
ak>> that is directed by Russia with a carrot. The main concern of
ak>> Russia is millions of (Russian) Ukrainians that do not support the
ak>> things that happened in Kiev in the spring of 2014. Actually when
ak>> President Yanukovich was overthrown by the crowd in Kiev, these
ak>> people were robbed of their choice and their right to choose their
ak>> destiny.

LL> The people want peace, not war. For decades the people of Ukraine
LL> were at peace with both themselves and their neighbors. What
LL> happened? How did the people of Ukraine suddenly find themselves at
LL> odds with not just themselves, but everybody else as well?

Ukraine is a formation of two groups of people with different mentality.
West and east of the Ukraine historically rejected each other. Such a
union cannot be stable.

Well, it is like a surgeon creates a man from two bodies, that are incompatible with each other. Rejection is the most probable scenario,
and if there is no rejection then there is a pain in the ass. I mean
that is like the situation in Ukraine looks like now.

<skipped>
ak>> The problem is not is Crimea, the problem is in the inhabitant of
ak>> the Crimea. The West must understand that it is a propaganda lie
ak>> that those people had voted for separation from Ukraine under
ak>> Russia's threats and gun barrels. The West must understand that
ak>> even the bitter truth is better than a lie. The West must
ak>> understand what the Crimean population really think about the
ak>> situation on the peninsula. Then it will stop save these people
ak>> from themselves.

LL> I do not know, and can only venture to guess, but the population of
LL> Crimea (before any vote was taken) was probably 90% to 95% Russian
LL> speakers. Am I right? I'm willing to bet I am not far off.

Yes, and imagine that this people were not allowed to have as little as
street plates on their houses in Russian.

LL> Language defines a culture of a people. I know this being Cajun. It
LL> is not about race or nationality. Society and culture are two
LL> different things.

Language and also history. Crimea is a part of Russia's history, at
least for three centuries.

NS>>> You're Vladimir Putin, formerly of the KGB. You're Vladimir
NS>>> Putin, and if you've learned nothing else there, you've learned
NS>>> how to make an offer that can't be refused.

ak>> If the US thinks that Ukrainian should join the West they should
ak>> give the same right to the second part of Ukraine, which wants
ak>> another way. That will be democracy. We live in 21st century, and
ak>> we should accept divorces rather that killing our wives when they
ak>> are going to leave us.

LL> Ukraine must be allowed to be Ukraine. Nobody is boss of Ukrainians
LL> except Ukrainians themselves. As such, Ukrainians must be allowed
LL> to decide their own future. For themselves.

Yes, but in the latest 2015 regional elections the party of power has
gained just 20%. It is the result without the people of Crimea and
Dombass who didn't participate.

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido7.debate 2015
--- FIDOGATE 5.1.7ds
* Origin: Pushkin's BBS (2:5020/2140.2)

Hi, Lee Lofaso!
LL> The division in Vietnam did not last. The division in Korea will
LL> one day come to an end.

These divisions were made by politicians. Vietnam parts remained close mentally. That's why their integration was very probable. Korea's parts became very different and most probably incompatible.

The only thing sustaining North Korean separation from the South is complete terror of the North Korean power structure over it's people.

In a country where the absolute leader has one of their own relatives executed by the most horrendous means imaginable, when the day comes that the people suddenly rise up and make drastic changes to their way of being governed, it will be a blood bath. I'd like it to be in my lifetime. Nothing would make
me happier than to see that chubby little idiot with the cereal-bowl haircut, strung up by his balls and fed slowly into a shredder, toes-first. In front
of all his cronies, so they can get a first hand look at how they themselves will be meeting their own end.
--- SBBSecho 2.27-Win32
* Origin: Telnet://valhalla.synchro.net - Richmond, Virginia (1:275/93)

Re: Ukraine Redux
By: Lee Lofaso to All on Fri Jun 19 2015 12:03 am

Kerimova
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