Your words are a twaddle unless you see the columns of
Russian tanks and troops marching along the Ukraine roads.
Who told you that countries cannot split up? Why do you
think that Ukraine cannot split like Yugoslavia,
Czechoslovakia?
It is not pro-Russian forces are fighting
in eastern Ukraine. It is the Russian people who always
lived there, in eastern and southern Ukraine, and they were
extremely insulted when pro-western rebels removed their
candidate (Yanukovich, who won democratic elections) from
power.
Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured
power by force, violating all democratic institutions and
election results.
Putin is not Hiller, just because Russia is not a fascist
Germany.
Russia doesn't want to rule over the world and
topple those governments it doesn't like. It is somebody
else.
It easy to explain. When you conquer a country _by military
invasion_ you, as a rule, can find collaborators only among
bastards, traitors and thieves. So, it is no wonder when
It is not correct. Ask people from Israel or the US what an
invasion looks like. So far you can't tell of Russian
"invasion". People must be very accurate in such things.
Your words are a twaddle unless you see the columns of
Russian tanks and troops marching along the Ukraine roads.
Who told you that countries cannot split up? Why do you
think that Ukraine cannot split like Yugoslavia,
Czechoslovakia?
It is not pro-Russian forces are fighting
in eastern Ukraine. It is the Russian people who always
lived there, in eastern and southern Ukraine, and they were
extremely insulted when pro-western rebels removed their
candidate (Yanukovich, who won democratic elections) from
power.
Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured
power by force, violating all democratic institutions and
election results.
Putin is not Hiller, just because Russia is not a fascist
Germany.
Russia doesn't want to rule over the world and
topple those governments it doesn't like. It is somebody
else.
It easy to explain. When you conquer a country _by military
invasion_ you, as a rule, can find collaborators only among
bastards, traitors and thieves. So, it is no wonder when
It is not correct. Ask people from Israel or the US what an
invasion looks like. So far you can't tell of Russian
"invasion". People must be very accurate in such things.
It is not pro-Russian forces are fighting
in eastern Ukraine. It is the Russian people who always
lived there, in eastern and southern Ukraine, and they were
extremely insulted when pro-western rebels removed their
candidate (Yanukovich, who won democratic elections) from
power.
Being insulted is not ground for shooting up the place, and
killing people. It is not grounds for seizing power. Now, how
many Russian people live there? And why are Russians living in
Ukraine and claiming the right to decide who rules the country?
Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured
power by force, violating all democratic institutions and
election results.
By force? It seems most of the force was used against them.
According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten
after Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention
or such, but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding
the previous constitution be reinstated.
---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830
But it was the deaths of at least 88 people, many of them
protesters shot dead by uniformed snipers in 48 hours of
bloodshed, that ultimately brought him down. ----------------------------------------------------------------
Putin is not Hiller, just because Russia is not a fascist
Germany.
Russia doesn't want to rule over the world and
topple those governments it doesn't like. It is somebody
else.
Russia maybe not, Putin I'm not so sure of.
When Obama declared he was pulling our troops out of Afghanistan
and Iraq the Republicans ranted and raved about how no one would
...
It easy to explain. When you conquer a country _by military
invasion_ you, as a rule, can find collaborators only among
bastards, traitors and thieves. So, it is no wonder when
Afghanistan was the base for the 9-11 attack. Iraq was a war for
oil. We should have been out of Afghanistan quickly, and never
in Iraq. I was talking about the republican reaction to a screw
up series of wars, vs doing nothing or something now.
No matter what the status of the Ukraine and it's government,
Russia is clearly an outside invader. Failing to come to their aid
would be a clear sign to Putin that the West really is too weak to
stop him. Not too militarily weak, on that we outweigh them in
spade, but too weak morally.
It is not correct. Ask people from Israel or the US what an
invasion looks like. So far you can't tell of Russian
"invasion". People must be very accurate in such things.
Putin has backed off. However, it certainly appeared he wanted
to cut the Ukraine up.
http://tinyurl.com/lsgsoqd
washingtonpost
ousted-ukraine-president-warns-of-civil-war-criticizes-us-for-
aiding-current-government
Yanukovych last appeared in public Feb. 28, in a news
conference also in Rostov, when he asserted he was still the
legal president of Ukraine and that he was not calling upon
Russia to intervene militarily.
The next day, Russia's parliament authorized President Vladimir
Putin to send troops into Ukraine, and soon thereafter Russia
asserted that Yanukovych had requested the intervention the day
after he spoke to the press.
Ousted Ukraine president warns of civil war, criticizes U.S.
for aiding current government
"The cities are being patrolled by masked gunmen," Yanukovych
said in a statement to the press in the southern Russian city
of Rostov-on-Don.
Yanukovych, who read from a statement in Russian and did not
take questions, accused the West and the United States of
backing fascists in Ukraine - another regular allegation being
made by Russian authorities.
On March 6, after gunmen took over the parliament building in
the Crimean regional capital, Simferopol, a pro-Russian
leadership was installed. Then the regional parliament voted
behind closed doors for Crimea to leave Ukraine and join
Russia, setting a referendum for Sunday to validate their
decision.
Without true freedom of speech and the press no one can have any
idea what is going on in Russia. However, any govt that puts a
woman's music group in prison for protest songs, and for a long
time, is not a govt I believe is honest.
I wonder about that. I wonder if, maybe, he's got it backwards. I
wonder if the result of doing nothing might not be what leads to
the war nobody wants.
We have long been told that Hitler might have been stopped,
probably would have been stopped, if the other nations had stepped
in with his first aggression against the Sudentenland, against
Austria, against those who could not defend themselves.
What makes anyone think Putin is any less than Hitler?
Your words are a twaddle unless you see the columns of
Russian tanks and troops marching along the Ukraine roads.
Once that happens it's too late. What we do know is those troops
and tanks were massed on the Ukraine border, but have recently
been withdrawn.
What Putin has accomplished is to give the former Soviet states
reason to believe he is trying to reconstitute the Soviet Union.
That gives them reason to ask for more US military aid,
including the anti-missile systems that had been canceled a few
years ago.
Who told you that countries cannot split up? Why do you
think that Ukraine cannot split like Yugoslavia,
Czechoslovakia?
I have no problem with countries splitting up. What I do have is
when one portion wants to secede, and the reports are of masked
gunmen patrolling the cities. If they are legitimate, why are
they masked?
If the people who live there want to split off, I don't have a
problem with that. I do have a problem with it being done by
masked gunmen.
It is not pro-Russian forces are fighting
in eastern Ukraine. It is the Russian people who always
lived there, in eastern and southern Ukraine, and they were
extremely insulted when pro-western rebels removed their
candidate (Yanukovich, who won democratic elections) from
power.
Being insulted is not ground for shooting up the place, and
killing people. It is not grounds for seizing power. Now, how
many Russian people live there? And why are Russians living in
Ukraine and claiming the right to decide who rules the country?
Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured
power by force, violating all democratic institutions and
election results.
By force? It seems most of the force was used against them.
According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten
after Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention
or such, but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding
the previous constitution be reinstated.
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830
But it was the deaths of at least 88 people, many of them
protesters shot dead by uniformed snipers in 48 hours of
bloodshed, that ultimately brought him down.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Putin is not Hiller, just because Russia is not a fascist
Germany.
Russia doesn't want to rule over the world and
topple those governments it doesn't like. It is somebody
else.
Russia maybe not, Putin I'm not so sure of.
When Obama declared he was pulling our troops out of Afghanistan
and Iraq the Republicans ranted and raved about how no one would
...
It easy to explain. When you conquer a country _by military
invasion_ you, as a rule, can find collaborators only among
bastards, traitors and thieves. So, it is no wonder when
Afghanistan was the base for the 9-11 attack. Iraq was a war for
oil. We should have been out of Afghanistan quickly, and never
in Iraq. I was talking about the republican reaction to a screw
up series of wars, vs doing nothing or something now.
...
No matter what the status of the Ukraine and it's government,
Russia is clearly an outside invader. Failing to come to their aid
would be a clear sign to Putin that the West really is too weak to
stop him. Not too militarily weak, on that we outweigh them in
spade, but too weak morally.
It is not correct. Ask people from Israel or the US what an
invasion looks like. So far you can't tell of Russian
"invasion". People must be very accurate in such things.
Putin has backed off. However, it certainly appeared he wanted
to cut the Ukraine up.
http://tinyurl.com/lsgsoqd
washingtonpost
ousted-ukraine-president-warns-of-civil-war-criticizes-us-for-
aiding-current-government
Yanukovych last appeared in public Feb. 28, in a news
conference also in Rostov, when he asserted he was still the
legal president of Ukraine and that he was not calling upon
Russia to intervene militarily.
The next day, Russia's parliament authorized President Vladimir
Putin to send troops into Ukraine, and soon thereafter Russia
asserted that Yanukovych had requested the intervention the day
after he spoke to the press.
...
Ousted Ukraine president warns of civil war, criticizes U.S.
for aiding current government
...
"The cities are being patrolled by masked gunmen," Yanukovych
said in a statement to the press in the southern Russian city
of Rostov-on-Don.
Yanukovych, who read from a statement in Russian and did not
take questions, accused the West and the United States of
backing fascists in Ukraine - another regular allegation being
made by Russian authorities.
...
On March 6, after gunmen took over the parliament building in
the Crimean regional capital, Simferopol, a pro-Russian
leadership was installed. Then the regional parliament voted
behind closed doors for Crimea to leave Ukraine and join
Russia, setting a referendum for Sunday to validate their
decision.
Some links to look at.
Wall street journal
http://tinyurl.com/ohlh6ys
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27633117
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution
BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn
.. I'm not lost -- I'm "locationally challenged"
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
* Origin: Fidonet Since 1991 bbs.docsnetservices.com (1:123/140)
I believe you can hardly imagine a situation when some Arab
girls in frivolous, "ala gay parade" style clothes rush
into the main Jerusalem synagogue and start singing "Allah,
kill infidels?" Jews, I believe, can understand that such
an act is criminal and completely unacceptable. But
Americans think that it was OK, just because they had lost
the true faith in God.
It is now all the same for them -- a
gay parade in a street or a fucking mess in the main
cathedral. It must be equally allowed. Well, at least in
Russia. ;)
But now it is too early to speak in this way, and your
comparisons are false. The only correct comparison is
comparing the situation in Ukraine with the situation in
Yugoslavia after some areas of it declared a separation.
Until the civil war Yugoslavia's borders and integrity were
also recognized across the world.
Many territories of the former USSR have still been closely
related with each other as economically as in other areas.
Actually, until last time, eastern Ukraine was separated
from Russia only formally. In reality, all the eastern
Ukraine plants continued working with Russian plants, there
was no real border, people could freely move from one
country to another. The same things are now with
Byelorussia, Kazakhstan and some other former USSR
republics.
Putin has invented nothing. It is a lie, that
all people of the republics of the USSR hated each other
and had nothing in common. So, it is a natural idea to
legalize things that have always been and have existed now.
Well, if you had seen the Maidan rebellion in Kiev you
could have also seen the rebels wearing masks. It is
natural for this kind of events. These people have
relatives, they are not sure that the secret police will
not come to their homes during the night.
You can also note that the police across all the world now
uses modern technology - it photographs all the
demonstrators, rebels so to create a special database for
future arrests and repressions.
The modern Ukraine mentality cannot accept that some people
might have a desire to divorce and live separately. It is
like (in some Asian countries) women are not allowed to
divorce on their own will.
Compare: Divorce in Saudi Arabia http://saudiwoman.me/2009/04/07/divorce-in-saudi-arabia/
There are 8-9 million Russians in Ukraine. It is incorrect
to call them killers or terrorists, as the present
authority does. More of that -- it is a gruesome propaganda
and a lie. Russian people started their protests in the
same lawless way the pro-western activists started their
activity in Kiev -- noisy defiant demonstrations, capturing
municipal buildings, dispersing the police etc. Yanukovich
refused to shoot people in Kiev (my respect to him for
that!), but after the western rebels had come to power in
Kiev they shamelessly started to use a brutal force against
eastern protesters. After some victims the wheel of a civil
war had started its rotation. Blood is a perfect lubricant
for it.
The Kiev police just guarded government buildings from the
rebels. Actually, there was only one attempt to clear
Maidan -- when Yanukovich was on his foreign visit. The
police had cleared Maidan during a half-an-hour. But there
was outcry about democracy violation and the demonstrators
were allowed to come back. After that the police looked
like lamp posts and were burned alive with Molotov
cocktails.
After wining the 2010 elections Yanukovich was the
legitimate state leader and, besides, the leader of the
biggest parliamentarian coalition. They had all rights to
do the changes they wanted. It is democracy. If another
party had won elections they could have do the same. They
could join to Devil or so -- it would also a legal choice.
The legal majority in Kiev was removed from parliament by
force and threats.
That's why many in the east of the Ukraine (Yanukovich's
electorate) consider the Kiev's events as an illegal cope
and don't want to obey the new power.
Can you pay attention that "many of them were protesters"?
Who were the others? They were the police. They police
returned fire only after they got under a sniper fire and
lost a dozen of people. If the police had not shot with
live ammunition for four or five months of the rebellion -
what an event could provoke them to fire? Especially when
an agreement with Yanukovich had been achieved? I strongly
believe that some people in Maidan square did not want a
peaceful solution. And they derailed the agreement in a
most outrageous way.
<skipped>BK>> Putin has backed off. However, it certainly appeared he wanted to
Such events as a rule are made by small but active groups.
Such a thing happened in Kiev, such a thing happened in
eastern Ukraine. Russia has played a small role -- eastern
rebels had quickly captured a lot of modern weapon and even
some military bases. So now they are a force and if
somebody don't want to spill blood or fight with them they
must negotiate with them and, first, to stop call them
terrorists and bandits. How easily some people can use such
marks and tags!
<skipped>
It doesn't matter who were that gunmen. Even id they
guarded that meeting, surely the situation was not like in
a Moscow theater which was captured by terrorists in 2002.
And at last about the referendum. It was open and honest.
Everybody voted as he wanted. Those who chose not to vote
(many of the 13% Tatar population, for instance) were free
in making their choice, and their votes were taken into
account and not hidden. Everybody in the Crimea had an
opportunity to express his choice.
A NATO's general whined bitterly that the Crimea referendum
"was held under Russian gun barrrels," but it is more fare
to say that the last Ukraine elections were held under the
gun barrels of Ukraine's army, at least in the east. What
kind of fare elections can be in a country with a civil
war? BTW, it is exactly the same reason why the latest
elections in Syria were declared illegal by the West.
Double standards?
Being insulted is not ground for shooting up the place, and
killing people. It is not grounds for seizing power. Now, how
many Russian people live there? And why are Russians living in
Ukraine and claiming the right to decide who rules the country?
Who has. the right to decide who gets to stay and who must
leave? Palestinians claim Israelis stole their land. And
other peoples from far away were allowed to settle and
literally steal that land from the proper owners.
Of course, we did much the same thing in regards to Native
Americans, forcing them to live on reservations which we had
so conveniently set aside for them.
Hell, we were so damned nice to Injuns that we denied them
the right to vote - until Bill Clinton took office. And now
look at what they are doing to us. Those same Injuns are
taking us to court in order to keep our oil companies from
fracking on the land that we gave them to live on!
But it was the deaths of at least 88 people, many of them
protesters shot dead by uniformed snipers in 48 hours of
bloodshed, that ultimately brought him down.
----------------------------------------------------------------
According to the CIA, Libyans are the most patriotic people
on Earth. For decades, they looked upon their leader as
being the most honest and trustworthy man who ever lived.
there. Yes, my friend, Libyans loved Billy Beer, which is
Russia maybe not, Putin I'm not so sure of.
Afghanistan was the base for the 9-11 attack. Iraq was a war for
oil. We should have been out of Afghanistan quickly, and never
in Iraq. I was talking about the republican reaction to a screw
up series of wars, vs doing nothing or something now.
example, President Bush was warned well ahead of time that
terrorists were planning such a strike, yet chose to
nothing to prevent it.
Did the President know about an impending terrorist attack
and deliberately choose to do nothing, knowing no wartime
President has ever lost a bid for re-election? Did
is Minister Farrakhan full of bunk?
It is not correct. Ask people from Israel or the US what an
invasion looks like. So far you can't tell of Russian
"invasion". People must be very accurate in such things.
Putin has backed off. However, it certainly appeared he wanted
to cut the Ukraine up.
It was never Putin's intention to invade Ukraine.
The US Congress authorized the use of force in regards to
Iraq so that President Bush could force Saddam Hussein to
back down - thus allowing UN inspectors to continue their
work in Iraq. How did that work out? Instead of diplomacy,
our fine President chose WAR. We were the aggressor. Iraq
did not attack the US. We attacked Iraq.
Did Russia invade Crimea? No.
Did Russia invade Ukraine? No.
The people of Crimea made their own choice to join Russia.
Nobody forced them to do that. A vote was held, and it was
really no contest.
Should a country kill thousands of own people for their
desire to live separately?
Case in point: The US Civil War 1861-1865
The better question would be, should a country not kill thousand
of their own people as the price for freeing millions from
slavery?
On 08-15-14 13:02, Roy Witt wrote to BOB KLAHN <=-
Should a country kill thousands of own people for their
desire to live separately?
Case in point: The US Civil War 1861-1865
The better question would be, should a country not kill thousand
of their own people as the price for freeing millions from
slavery?
As long as they're Yankees, no.
PS - The Civil War wasn't about slavery...but it sure turned out to be
a crutch for y'all.
The better question would be, should a country not kill thousand
of their own people as the price for freeing millions from
slavery?
As long as they're Yankees, no.
Last I heard it was Yankees: 1 the South: 0
PS - The Civil War wasn't about slavery...but it sure turned out to
be a crutch for y'all.
Don't you mean "totally" about slavery?
The basis behind all southern contention was how the slave trade
centered around states rights, economic freedoms and slavery itself.
Slavery. Now unless you feel men can be owned by another, this is
fairly self explainatory.
The good old boys
... Look Twice, Save a Life... Motorcycles are EVERYWHERE!!
On 08-17-14 12:19, Roy Witt wrote to Bill McGarrity <=-
The better question would be, should a country not kill thousand
of their own people as the price for freeing millions from
slavery?
As long as they're Yankees, no.
Last I heard it was Yankees: 1 the South: 0
Ask yourself, how many more Yanks died than Rebels?
Dead Yanks 596,670: South 490,309
Served: Yanks 1,532,278, South 591,810 i.e. a little under 3:1
Eligible, but ran off to Canada: Yanks: 2,430,294, South: none
Even with close to total conscription, the South could not match the North's numerical strength. Southerners also stood a significantly greater chance of being killed, wounded, or captured, especially if
they were old men, women and teenage civilians.
ay withRW> Get yer historicathe l facts straight: The Northern and Southern sectionsPS - The Civil War wasn't about slavery...but it sure turned out to
be a crutch for y'all.
Don't you mean "totally" about slavery?
of the United States developed along different lines. The South
remained a predominantly agrarian economy while the North became more
and more industrialized. Different social cultures and political
beliefs developed.
All of this led to disagreements on issues such as taxes, tariffs and internal improvements as well as states rights versus federal rights.
Slavery was an excuse to make war by the Yanks 'after the war
started'...
The basis behind all southern contention was how the slave trade
centered around states rights, economic freedoms and slavery itself.
Wrong, see above.
Slavery. Now unless you feel men can be owned by another, this is
fairly self explainatory.
Moron.
The good old boys
aka Democrats, no Southerun Democrats, who are now against all that preaching they did back then.
The better question would be, should a country not kill thousand
of their own people as the price for freeing millions from
slavery?
As long as they're Yankees, no.
Last I heard it was Yankees: 1 the South: 0
Ask yourself, how many more Yanks died than Rebels?
Dead Yanks 596,670: South 490,309
Served: Yanks 1,532,278, South 591,810 i.e. a little under 3:1
Eligible, but ran off to Canada: Yanks: 2,430,294, South: none
All your #'s can be compared to the game of baseball where one
pitcher gives up 15 hits in a game yet still walks away with the
victory. It's the final score that counts.
Even with close to total conscription, the South could not match the
North's numerical strength. Southerners also stood a significantly
greater chance of being killed, wounded, or captured, especially if
they were old men, women and teenage civilians.
Shit happens...
ay withRW>> Get yer historicathe l facts straight: The Northern andPS - The Civil War wasn't about slavery...but it sure turned out to
be a crutch for y'all.
Don't you mean "totally" about slavery?
sections
of the United States developed along different lines. The South
remained a predominantly agrarian economy while the North became
more and more industrialized. Different social cultures and
political beliefs developed.
All of this led to disagreements on issues such as taxes, tariffs
and internal improvements as well as states rights versus federal
rights.
Slavery was an excuse to make war by the Yanks 'after the war
started'...
The basis behind all southern contention was how the slave trade
centered around states rights, economic freedoms and slavery itself.
Wrong, see above.
Did I not explain all that in my original post (the one where you
edited out the economic reasoning).
You play the game like FauxEntertainment...
edit the shit out of a story to make them seem intelligent.
Slavery. Now unless you feel men can be owned by another, this is
fairly self explainatory.
Moron.
So you own slaves Roy?
The good old boys
aka Democrats, no Southerun Democrats, who are now against all that
preaching they did back then.
And the baton was passed to the southern Republicans of today.
Actually, ALL republicans fit that image.
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