• The Final War For J'lem

    From Steve Asher@3:800/432 to All on Thu Sep 28 22:32:26 2006
    For those not familiar with "Noahide Laws", note the
    similarities between the implementation of Noahide & Sharia
    Laws, together with the intentions of those who would pursue
    the adoption of Noahide Laws in order to bring about the
    "Messianic Kingdom":

    Islam - seeks a global Caliphate under Sharia Law, governed
    by the "Imam Mahdi".

    Judeo-Noahide - seeks the "Messianic Kingdom" under "Messiah"
    (Moshiach) - create a new Noahide society with Noahide schools
    and courts, overseen by the Sanhedrin. Seize political power,
    using peaceful, lawful means, in the Western nations, with the
    "religious" USA topping the list of prospects for conversion to
    a Noahide nation. Jewish courts will have full authority over
    Jewish citizens, who will no longer be subject to the authority
    of gentile courts. Noahide courts & judges will replace the
    existing court system of each gentile country (eg USA, Oz, UK).
    Legal code will be rewritten to conform with halacha.

    * Christians are not "righteous gentiles", and will not inherit
    this "World to Come". That status only applies to those gentiles
    who carefully observe the "Seven Laws of Noah", including
    following the halachic authority of the oral Torah and the rabbis.

    Unfortunately for the "Judeo-Noahides", they are rejecting salvation
    and eternal life through Jesus Christ as a free and undeserved gift
    based on Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection, in favour of a
    counterfeit "Messianic Kingdom", with counterfeit laws, counterfeit righteousness, and a counterfeit "Messiah". He is the Antichrist,
    and his followers are doomed.

    The Noahide "plan", from the horse's mouth, so to speak:

    ===================================================================

    http://www.noahide.com/finalwar.htm

    The Final War for Jerusalem

    Why Permanent Israeli Victory Is Now Within Reach

    [...]

    In simple terms, we are at war. It is not a struggle merely for power,
    wealth, or some other material advantage; it is a titanic clash over
    the future of world civilization. The world must now choose, for all
    time, between the eternal holiness of the Messianic kingdom - for which
    Jews have tirelessly worked for thousands of yearsuand the utter
    nihilism of the darkest evil ever to threaten the planet. This war has
    already spread into every nation, every social institution, every
    human activity. It has thus become a world war in the ultimate sense.

    [...]

    ...to bring Moshiach immediately.

    Judaism has always been a conquering religion, not for the purpose
    of converting gentiles to become Jews, but rather with the mission of
    returning the world to the universal covenant between G-d and Noah.
    For halachic reasons too numerous and detailed to list here, gentiles
    today who follow Christianity, Islam, or other religions are not, for
    the most part, "righteous gentiles" who inherit the World to Come.
    That status belongs only to those gentiles who carefully observe the
    Seven Laws of Noah, including following the halachic authority of the
    oral Torah and the rabbis.

    (For those who find the concept confusing, we hasten to point out that
    this is not part of a conversion to Judaism, nor even a step in the
    process. The Children of Noah have their own, independent role to play
    in assisting the Jewish people and refining the world. Those
    individuals who wish to convert may do so, but there is no such
    requirement. In the Messianic era, these righteous gentiles will
    worship in the Jerusalem Temple and celebrate certain Torah holidays,
    but will maintain a separate court system and not intermarry with
    Jews. Today, such Noachides also assist in bringing non-observant Jews
    back to Torah, among other functions.)

    [...]

    Our most pressing task, to put it simply, is to launch an
    international Noachide revolution without delay. The process has
    already begun, with dozens of tiny Noachide communities having
    appeared throughout the United States, generally composed of former
    Christians who have abandoned that religion. The task of organizing
    the revolution can be divided into two broad stages:

    I) We must first create a new Noachide society as an international
    network of communities and organizations functioning inside, but
    separately from, the surrounding society (based on halachic
    requirements and directives, Noachide institutions function quite
    differently from their Christian and secular counterparts).

    This starts with an aggressive outreach program, by Jews and Noachides
    alike, to teach gentiles about their responsibilities according to
    Torah.

    Simultaneously, we must organize functioning programs and institutions
    that are prepared to absorb these vast numbers of ex-Christians and
    immediately involve them in efforts to bring Moshiach. The Noachide
    communities require schools for their children, modeled after the
    Jewish yeshiva programs; Torah study groups geared for their specific
    needs; coordinated celebrations of appropriate Torah holidays; family
    services for marriage, support for the elderly, and burial; courts of
    justice, led by rabbinically trained righteous judges, which will
    function similarly to Jewish batei dinim; and tzedaka programs to
    assist the needy, to build new Noachide schools, and to support Jewish settlements in Israel and synagogues throughout the diaspora.

    2) In the second stage, the growing Noachide movement will seize
    political poweruusing only peaceful, lawful meansuin the capitals of
    the Western nations. This, of course, will not take place until the
    Noachide society has grown to some threshold size. We do not know how
    large this needs to be nor which nations will join the revolution
    first, although the United States, as a fairly religious, conservative
    nation, certainly tops the list of prospects.

    Upon seizing the reins of government, the new Noachide leaders will
    move quickly to implement a full agenda of reform. All economic and technological aid to the Communist Bloc, including the PLO, will be
    terminated immediately. Full support will be given to Israeli forces
    to reinvade PLO-controlled areas, with military assistance offered
    where necessary. Jewish courts (the batei dini of the rabbis) will
    be granted full legal sovereignty over Jewish citizens within each
    country, who will no longer be subject to the authority of gentile
    courts. The pre-existing Noachide judges and courts will replace the
    existing court system of each country, and the legal code will be
    drastically rewritten to conform to halacha; in the United States, the
    emphasis will be on restoring the authority of the Constitution and
    abolishing all unconstitutional government programs and agencies. The
    national debt will be foreclosed, probably by paying off creditors
    with government land holdings, thus averting economic disaster. And
    law and order will be fully restored through the establishment of
    internal security measures, again in accordance with Torah law.

    [...]

    The world has reached its ultimate point of decision, and the power
    to succeed belongs entirely to the Jewish people. We can wait until
    Moshiach comes on his own, following a world war, or we can bring him
    through our own actions, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe has stated is our
    mission. The choice is ours.

    There is not a minute to waste. Jews everywhere, unite!

    Copyright - 1998 by the Committee for Israeli Victory


    Cheers, Steve..

    ---
    * Origin: No to Noahides! (3:800/432)
  • From George Pope@1:153/715.1275 to Steve Asher on Thu Sep 28 08:55:12 2006
    On (28 Sep 06) Steve Asher wrote to All...
    Judeo-Noahide - seeks the "Messianic Kingdom" under "Messiah"
    (Moshiach)

    Sounds like your Christianity, in that respect, don't it?

    * Christians are not "righteous gentiles", and will not inherit
    this "World to Come". That status only applies to those gentiles
    who carefully observe the "Seven Laws of Noah", including
    following the halachic authority of the oral Torah and the rabbis.

    NOWHERE in the Noachide laws is there ANYTHING about following halachic authority of ANYONE!!!

    You really ought to do some research on the FACTS some time!

    Talk to a few rabbis directly (I have!)

    Unfortunately for the "Judeo-Noahides", they are rejecting salvation
    and eternal life through Jesus Christ as a free and undeserved gift
    based on Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection, in favour of a counterfeit "Messianic Kingdom", with counterfeit laws, counterfeit righteousness, and a counterfeit "Messiah". He is the Antichrist,
    and his followers are doomed.

    Jesus Christ is just the anglicized version of the Greek for "Yeshua
    Moshiach" (ie. salvation by messiah)

    Because I care,
    |<+]::-) (Cyberpope(the Bishop of ROM!))


    --- PPoint 1.76
    * Origin: Cyberpope pointing via Bandmaster BBS! (1:153/715.1275)
  • From Steve Asher@3:800/432 to George Pope on Fri Sep 29 10:51:06 2006
    Mulling over George Pope to Steve Asher 28 Sep 2006

    NOWHERE in the Noachide laws is there ANYTHING about following
    halachic authority of ANYONE!!!

    You really ought to do some research on the FACTS some time!

    Save your dissembling for someone who cares for it, George.

    Talk to a few rabbis directly (I have!)

    Which rabbis did you talk to, George?

    No hand-waving or evasion, please. Just a straight answer, for a change. :)

    Cheers, Steve..

    ---
    * Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.thebbs.org (3:800/432)
  • From George Pope@1:153/715.1275 to Steve Asher on Fri Sep 29 04:22:07 2006
    On (29 Sep 06) Steve Asher wrote to George Pope...
    NOWHERE in the Noachide laws is there ANYTHING about following halachic authority of ANYONE!!!

    You really ought to do some research on the FACTS some time!

    Save your dissembling for someone who cares for it, George.

    No dissembling. I made a straightforward statement of fact:
    "NOWHERE[emphasis deliberate] in the Noachide laws is there ANYTHING
    about following halachic authority of ANYONE!!!"

    Talk to a few rabbis directly (I have!)

    Which rabbis did you talk to, George?

    No hand-waving or evasion, please. Just a straight answer, for a
    change. :)

    I only give straight answers. It's easier.

    Rabbi Leff(now in Ohio) and I have had a long academic relationship.

    Specifically on the subject of Noahide, I've spoken with Rabbi Weinberg,
    from a local Chabad. . .

    Others, I don't recall off-hand, but they're there.

    Because I care,
    |<+]::-) (Cyberpope(the Bishop of ROM!))

    --- PPoint 1.76
    * Origin: Cyberpope pointing via Bandmaster BBS! (1:153/715.1275)
  • From Steve Asher@3:800/432 to George Pope on Sat Sep 30 21:12:23 2006
    Mulling over George Pope to Steve Asher 29 Sep 2006

    NOWHERE in the Noachide laws is there ANYTHING about following halachic authority of ANYONE!!!

    You really ought to do some research on the FACTS some time!

    Save your dissembling for someone who cares for it, George.

    No dissembling. I made a straightforward statement of fact: "NOWHERE[emphasis deliberate] in the Noachide laws is there
    ANYTHING about following halachic authority of ANYONE!!!"

    "Round and round the great big loop, isn't this fun, boys and girls?"
    as Rod Quantock might have said.

    On the one hand, you claim that "NOWHERE in the Noachide laws is there
    ANYTHING about following halachic authority of ANYONE!!!" (Nice bit of hand-waving, shouting, and weaselling, btw)

    On the other hand, you have previously stated that God didn't communicate
    His commandments directly to the world, only to the Jewish people through
    Moses and the prophets, and later the rabbis, and it was their job to
    interpret which were for whom and under what circumstances.

    That, George, is what "halacha" is all about - "the way to go" - the corpus
    of rabbinic legal texts - overall system of religious law. The "noahide
    laws" are a sub-set of this overall system of religious law (halacha).

    ===========================================================================

    Date : Fri Dec 09, 12:49 From : George Pope 1:153/715.1275
    To : Steve Asher
    Subj : Xmas Left & Right --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On (08 Dec 05) Steve Asher wrote to George Pope...
    ONE? Stop weaselling! I am talking about SEVEN "Noahide Laws", which
    you claim God communicated to Noah in "several communications" or
    similar.

    As I said, I have no time these days, what with working every day (when
    I was rather used to retired life! *sigh*)

    OK, you produced ONE of the SEVEN "Noahide Laws"; please trot out
    the reamining SIX, from scripture (not the Talmud), and as God
    spoke or communicated to Noah (not Adam, not the Rabbi, not the candlestick maker etc). What is the problem, given your claimed
    ability to read & understand scripture? Stop weaselling!

    Not all that God spoke is in the Bible -- some was spoken to Moses but
    not written down; some was spoken to prophets, but commanded to not be
    written down; some was conveyed to the Jewish priests & rabbis through
    the centuries. . .

    The fact that all 7 of the Noachide Laws DO exist in the written Torah
    is plain proof that God intended them to be kept!

    He didn't communicate His commandments directly to the world, only to
    the Jewish people(through Moses, & the prophets), and it was their job(&
    later the rabbis') to interpret which were for whom and under which circumstances.

    [...]

    These same rabbis are the ones who received the text/knowledge that God communicated 7 laws to Noah.

    [...]
    =======================================================================

    Talk to a few rabbis directly (I have!)

    Which rabbis did you talk to, George?

    No hand-waving or evasion, please. Just a straight answer, for a
    change. :)

    I only give straight answers. It's easier.

    Rabbi Leff(now in Ohio) and I have had a long academic
    relationship.

    Interesting - I can pin this one down without much trouble. :)

    Specifically on the subject of Noahide, I've spoken with Rabbi
    Weinberg, from a local Chabad. . .

    Do you have any more info on this one? There appear to be several
    Rabbi Weinbergs.

    Others, I don't recall off-hand, but they're there.

    Thanks for the 2 you did recall.

    Cheers, Steve..

    ---
    * Origin: No to Noahides! (3:800/432)
  • From George Pope@1:153/715.1275 to Steve Asher on Sat Sep 30 22:04:54 2006
    On (30 Sep 06) Steve Asher wrote to George Pope...
    That, George, is what "halacha" is all about - "the way to go" - the corpus
    of rabbinic legal texts - overall system of religious law. The
    "noahide
    laws" are a sub-set of this overall system of religious law (halacha).

    You really ought to stop pointing fingers about my style of discussion
    -- I plainly & directly asked you for a citation for your madcap fears,
    and you've consistently REFUSED to provide any -- could it be because,
    as I've guessed, there aren't any?

    Because I care,
    |<+]::-) (Cyberpope(the Bishop of ROM!))


    --- PPoint 1.76
    * Origin: Cyberpope pointing via Bandmaster BBS! (1:153/715.1275)
  • From George Pope@1:112/91 to Steve Asher on Fri Oct 6 13:37:38 2006
    From the Duke of Dissemble himself, eh?

    NOWHERE in the Noachide laws is there ANYTHING about following halachic authority of ANYONE!!!

    You really ought to do some research on the FACTS some time!

    Save your dissembling for someone who cares for it, George.

    Talk to a few rabbis directly (I have!)

    Which rabbis did you talk to, George?

    No hand-waving or evasion, please. Just a straight answer, for a change. :)

    I don't say it unless it's so.

    And I do my own research (no, that's not merely using the internet!)

    Because I care,
    |<+]::-{)} (Cyberpope(the Bishop of ROM!))

    ... nfx v3.1 2+2=5 (for exceptionally large values of 2)
    --- Fringe BBS
    * Origin: EWOG II - The Fringe - 904-733-1721 (1:112/91)