• Behind the politics

    From Richard Anderson@1:340/7 to All on Thu Aug 22 16:02:01 2019
    Obligatory "new to FidoNet" statement.

    What I want to know from everybody is what one or few principle(s) you derive your politics from. What principles lie behind your support for policy X or behind your opposition to policy Y? What is the point of politics? On what criteria do you measure or judge a society?
    --- SBBSecho 3.08-Win32
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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:221/360 to Richard Anderson on Fri Aug 23 19:20:38 2019
    Hello Richard,

    Obligatory "new to FidoNet" statement.

    What I want to know from everybody is what one or few principle(s) you
    derive your politics from. What principles lie behind your support for
    policy X or behind your opposition to policy Y? What is the point of politics? On what criteria do you measure or judge a society?

    Group A: Trump is always right.

    Group B: Trump is always wrong.

    --Lee

    --
    Make Sure Your Next Erection Is In Safe Hands

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  • From Richard Anderson@1:340/7 to Lee Lofaso on Fri Aug 23 15:08:36 2019
    Re: Behind the politics
    By: Lee Lofaso to Richard Anderson on Fri Aug 23 2019 07:20 pm

    Ha!

    That's actually largely why I'm asking the question the way I am. Politics these days isn't so much about principles as it is about Trump.

    I suspect those principles behind the politics would have a lot more overlap than whether the U.S. should or shouldn't put tariffs on Chinese goods or whether the U.K. should or shouldn't hold a re-vote on Brexit.

    I'm hapy to answer my own question as well. I just don't want to get into a debate before people have a chance to put in a few answers.

    Cheers!
    --- SBBSecho 3.09-Win32
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  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to RICHARD ANDERSON on Sat Aug 24 12:25:10 2019
    Obligatory "new to FidoNet" statement.

    What I want to know from everybody is what one or few principle(s) you
    derive
    your politics from. What principles lie behind your support for policy X or behind your opposition to policy Y?

    In this country, politicians observe only two rules (1)Get elected, and
    (2) get reelected,

    What is the point of politics? On what
    criteria do you measure or judge a society?

    "That government is best which governs least.
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  • From Richard Anderson@1:340/7 to BOB ACKLEY on Sat Aug 24 11:34:22 2019
    Re: Behind the politics
    By: BOB ACKLEY to RICHARD ANDERSON on Sat Aug 24 2019 12:25 pm

    In this country, politicians observe only two rules (1)Get elected, and (2) get reelected,

    No disagreement here. I'm not asking politicians, though (am I)?

    "That government is best which governs least.

    Yeah, but that also sounds like a means. So *why* is that government which governs least best? What end does such a government governing least serve?

    And, it's fine if the answer is the kind of statement that nobody could disagree with, or if it's the kind of axiomatic statement that can't be defended except circularly.

    I think maybe it's time I gave my answer, but I'll do that in a separate post. --- SBBSecho 3.09-Win32
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  • From Richard Anderson@1:340/7 to Richard Anderson on Sat Aug 24 12:46:38 2019
    Re: Behind the politics
    By: Richard Anderson to All on Thu Aug 22 2019 04:02 pm

    My take on this subject is that a society (no matter whether it has a "government" or not) should be judged on the basis of the extent to which people's needs are fulfilled.

    And when I say "needs" I mean the term in roughly the sense that Abraham Maslow
    used it. (Others have taken his work further, and I don't have a strong opinion
    on whether Maslow's system is supe
    rior to theirs, which is why I included the qualifier "roughly" earlier.)

    Maslow himself probably would have roughly agreed with this statement, I think.
    However, when he has spoken of how best to run society, he's known to have indicated his formula for accomplishing
    that involved putting the self-actualized (those whose needs are fulfilled) in
    charge. While I'm sure his intentions were pure, I don't think I'd be for implementing such a system.

    Fulfilling people's needs on a societal scale has many benefits. I believe it would reduce antisocial behavior, reduce rates of illness and hence medical costs, increase productivity, reduce add
    iction (see the "Rat Park Experiment"), improve culture, and otherwise improve many aspects of a society. And each of these further makes it easier to fulfill
    more needs. A virtuous cycle.

    But aside from the benefits it would have, I do take the fulfillment of people's needs as an end in itself, or at least very close thereto.

    This probably sounds like a pretty leftist sentiment. And to that charge I plead "guilty".
    --- SBBSecho 3.09-Win32
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  • From Richard Falken to Richard Anderson on Sat Aug 24 18:27:32 2019
    Re: Behind the politics
    By: Richard Anderson to All on Thu Aug 22 2019 04:02 pm

    Obligatory "new to FidoNet" statement.

    What I want to know from everybody is what one or few principle(s) you derive your politics from. What principles lie behind your support for policy X or behind your opposition to policy Y? What is the point of politics? On what criteria do you measure or judge a society?

    I mainly guide myself by the Non Agression Principle. In
    essence, it means I don't care what you do as long as you are
    not causing trouble to other people.

    In practice, I don't mind if you are gay or trans or whatever
    as long as you don't cause trouble to others. I also don't mind
    if you have a doomsday bunker full of weapons just in case WWIII
    happens, as long as you mess with nobody.

    I believe that organizations are composed of people, and that
    you don't have magical rights to do bad things just because you
    are in an organization. For example, if people does not have the
    right to confiscate your yard and build a fracking extraction
    rig without your permission in your garden, a corporation, which
    is composed of people, doesn't have it either. If I don't have
    the right to force you to buy insurance from my cousin's
    insurance firm, the government, which is an organization made
    of people, does not have the right to force you to buy insurance
    from a friend of some minister.

    I also think democrazy needs hard limits to prevent it from
    becoming too evil. This is why you have armored constitutions
    and the like, so people cannot vote basic civil rights off the
    law. Otherwise it would be too easy for big groups to abuse
    small groups.
  • From Richard Anderson@1:340/7 to Richard Falken on Sun Aug 25 15:34:52 2019
    Re: Behind the politics
    By: Richard Falken to Richard Anderson on Sat Aug 24 2019 06:27 pm

    I mainly guide myself by the Non Agression Principle. In
    essence, it means I don't care what you do as long as you are
    not causing trouble to other people.

    Great!

    I think the Non Agression Principle is something that a lot of people across the political spectrum could agree with.

    I imagine most people on the left who have heard of the NAP are likely to have problems with it. For instance, some formulations of it explicitly include mention of a person's property, and there are those on the left who wouldn't agree with that.

    But I think there's definitely a kernel within the NAP that... maybe even almost everybody could agree with.

    I could certainly get behind a statement like "no punishments for those who do not offend".

    Where disagreement could certainly come into play is where there's disagreement
    what constitutes an offense. To some, aborting a pregnancy qualifies as an offense. To others, restricting abortion rights does.

    Another place is whether punishment (or agression) should be allowed against those who do offend (or aggress).

    But, I'm more interested at this point in what we can agree on than what we can't. Thank you for responding!
    --- SBBSecho 3.09-Win32
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  • From Richard Falken to Richard Anderson on Sun Aug 25 17:35:45 2019
    Re: Behind the Politics
    By: Richard Anderson to Richard Falken on Sun Aug 25 2019 03:34 pm

    Hello there!

    I think the Non Agression Principle is something that a lot of people across the political spectrum could agree with.


    My experience is that everybody agrees with the NAP until they want to accomplish something for which the NAP is an obstacle.

    'I think people should be left alone as long as they are not causing
    trouble.'
    'I agree.'
    'I think bullfighting sucks. Glad interest in it is diminishing and the practice is dying out.'
    'I think it is horrible that such national tradition is dying. I think
    we must use tax funds to keep it alive and force everybody in town to
    attend bullfighting on Saturday.'

    Where disagreement could certainly come into play is where there's disagreement what constitutes an offense. To some, aborting a pregnancy qualifies as an offense. To others, restricting abortion rights does.

    With abortion in particular, the problem is often that defining what an
    human being with rights is is quite arbitrary. Why is an embryo of age
    X a being with rights and an embryo with age X-1 a being with no rights?
    Some religious groups solve the problem by declaring that it has rights
    from age 0, but even age 0 is something you come up more from faith than anything else. This is why abortion politics have never swayed my vote.
    I think it is all based in gut feeling and arbitrary limits and I see
    no way out of that.

    I think there is more of a problem with people who sees aggression
    everywhere and will over-react on it. Like the old lady who thinks your
    dog is too big, and hence it is dangerous, and hence you are dangerous,
    and hence you must be stopped at any cost. These people are troublesome
    because they end up lobbying and big dogs get banned off the city faster
    than you can spell "fearmonger".
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:221/360 to Richard Falken on Mon Aug 26 05:28:35 2019
    Hello Richard,

    Obligatory "new to FidoNet" statement.

    What I want to know from everybody is what one or few principle(s) you >>derive your politics from. What principles lie behind your support for >>policy X or behind your opposition to policy Y? What is the point of >>politics? On what criteria do you measure or judge a society?

    I mainly guide myself by the Non Agression Principle. In
    essence, it means I don't care what you do as long as you are
    not causing trouble to other people.

    IOW, you are declaring yourself to be a chicken. Not just chicken,
    but *a* chicken. One that goes cluck, cluck.

    I believe in democracy, where the rule of law is king, as decided
    by "we the people". That means people have rights. Not just a few
    privileges handed out to them by the very wealthy elite.

    The act of voting is a violent act. The most violent act one can
    do in a democracy. The wealthy elite do not like that, which is why
    they clamor for voting purges and voting suppression and other ways
    in which the act of voting can be curbed or denied.

    The state of California allows individuals to register to vote as
    young as age 16, although the act of voting is still restricted to
    being a minimum of age 18. Why not lower the age of voting to the
    same age as one is able to register? Certainly that makes more
    sense.

    One does not have to be able to read and write to qualify to vote.
    So even the excuse of not being old enough is horse manure.

    It used to be one had to be rich, white, educated, owner of property,
    and way past their teenage years to vote. Women could not vote.
    Black folks could not vote. Native Americans could not vote. Poor
    folks could not vote. The uneducated could not vote. This country
    was ruled by snobs. And it is snobs who want to return us to the
    days of old, where only snobs could vote.

    I choose to aggressively exercize my *right* to vote, and also to
    encourage all others to exercize their own *right* to vote. And also
    to expand that right to vote so that same right can be enjoyed by
    all - including infants (okay, their parents might have to vote by
    proxy so their voices can be heard).

    As long as an individual is alive, he/she should have the right
    to vote. From the time he/she comes into the world, until the time
    he/she leaves this world.

    In practice, I don't mind if you are gay or trans or whatever
    as long as you don't cause trouble to others. I also don't mind
    if you have a doomsday bunker full of weapons just in case WWIII
    happens, as long as you mess with nobody.

    And yet such people are banned from serving in the military,
    due to the president having a hissy. If he had his own way, none
    of them would have the right to vote, as he does not consider them
    as being people.

    I believe that organizations are composed of people, and that
    you don't have magical rights to do bad things just because you
    are in an organization. For example, if people does not have the
    right to confiscate your yard and build a fracking extraction
    rig without your permission in your garden, a corporation, which
    is composed of people, doesn't have it either. If I don't have
    the right to force you to buy insurance from my cousin's
    insurance firm, the government, which is an organization made
    of people, does not have the right to force you to buy insurance
    from a friend of some minister.

    The courts have ruled a corporation is a person. At least the
    courts have not granted them the right to vote. However, those
    corporations have other means of voting.

    I also think democrazy needs hard limits to prevent it from
    becoming too evil. This is why you have armored constitutions
    and the like, so people cannot vote basic civil rights off the
    law. Otherwise it would be too easy for big groups to abuse
    small groups.

    Democracy needs limits like people need a hole in their head.
    The right to vote is a violent act, the most violent act one can
    do in a democracy. The right to vote should be expanded, as it
    is this violent act that keeps democracy strong and flourishing.

    --Lee

    --
    Pork. The One You Love.

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