• system of choice

    From Alexey Vissarionov@2:5020/545 to All on Thu Aug 8 14:00:00 2019
    Good ${greeting_time}, All!

    After reading a quite long discussion (for this echoarea), I'd also like to share my experience.

    As I work in IT sphere since 1994, I've seen almost all Linux-based systems appearing, emerging and (most of them) dying. For now, I came to just two parameters of a GNU/Linux-based system I'd consider a quality mark:

    1. RPM packages
    2. SysV init

    That means, if some system lacks any of these, it very unlikely would be used.


    --
    Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
    gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-ccxxix-lxxix-xlii

    ... god@universe:~ # cvs up && make world
    --- /bin/vi
    * Origin: http://openwall.com/Owl (2:5020/545)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Alexey Vissarionov on Fri Aug 9 19:53:00 2019
    On 08-08-19 14:00, Alexey Vissarionov wrote to All <=-

    Good ${greeting_time}, All!

    After reading a quite long discussion (for this echoarea), I'd also
    like to share my experience.

    As I work in IT sphere since 1994, I've seen almost all Linux-based systems appearing, emerging and (most of them) dying. For now, I came
    to just two parameters of a GNU/Linux-based system I'd consider a
    quality mark:

    1. RPM packages

    Why RPM? dpkg offers similar functionality. I will use systems that use either.

    2. SysV init

    Sadly, seems to be a dying breed these days, with systemd taking over on a lot of distros. I haven't got my head around systemd, but know one of these days I really need to get to know it, because like it or not, I will be using systems that are based on systemd.

    That said, I quite like SysV init. It's straightforward and orderly. Most of my systems still use it.


    ... Spam will keep in it's can until the end of time.
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  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Alexey Vissarionov on Fri Aug 9 16:15:16 2019
    Hi Alexey!

    08 Aug 2019 14:00, from Alexey Vissarionov -> All:

    1. RPM packages

    With my experience I did not notice big differences between RPM and DEB.
    Could you elaborate what issues you have with DEB?

    2. SysV init

    That I do understand and agree with ;)

    CU, Ricsi

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  • From Andrew Alt@1:261/38 to All on Fri Aug 9 15:01:24 2019
    Tony Langdon wrote to Alexey Vissarionov <=-

    2. SysV init

    Sadly, seems to be a dying breed these days, with systemd taking over
    on a lot of distros. I haven't got my head around systemd, but know
    one of these days I really need to get to know it, because like it or
    not, I will be using systems that are based on systemd.

    That said, I quite like SysV init. It's straightforward and orderly.
    Most of my systems still use it.


    I like Debian and Slackware but primarily Debian user.

    atm, I'm downloading Devuan and may install it on a spare computer within the next few days. Anyone try it yet?

    "Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd. DevuanΓ ╓s stable release is
    now 2.0.0 ASCII. The 1.0.0 Jessie release (LTS) has moved to oldstable status. Since the declaration of intention to fork in 2014, infrastructure has been put
    in
    place to support DevuanΓ ╓s mission to offer users control over their system. Devuan
    Jessie provided a safe upgrade path from Debian 7 (Wheezy) and Debian 8 (Jessie).
    Now Devuan ASCII offers an upgrade from Devuan Jessie as well as a transition from
    Debian 9 (Stretch) that avoids unnecessary entanglements and ensures Init Freedom."

    --
    -Andy


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  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Andrew Alt on Fri Aug 9 21:25:04 2019
    Hallo Andrew!

    avoids unnecessary entanglements and ensures Init Freedom.

    Lately that has been sysvinit-2.95. Your miliage may vary.

    Het leven is goed,
    Maurice

    ... Huil niet om mij, ik heb vi.
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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Andrew Alt on Sat Aug 10 11:30:00 2019
    On 08-09-19 15:01, Andrew Alt wrote to All <=-

    I like Debian and Slackware but primarily Debian user.

    Yeah, I'm primarily a Debian and variants user these days too.

    atm, I'm downloading Devuan and may install it on a spare computer
    within the next few days. Anyone try it yet?

    "Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd. DevuanΓ ╓s
    stable release is

    Sounds interesting. Might be worth a look. Could put it on one of the many spare netbooks I have here. :)


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  • From Kai Richter@2:240/77 to Andrew Alt on Sat Aug 10 10:51:28 2019
    Hello Andrew!

    09 Aug 19, Andrew Alt wrote to All:

    atm, I'm downloading Devuan and may install it on a spare computer
    within the next few days. Anyone try it yet?

    I did too early. The sad thing is that usual developers and maintainers are "forced" to migrate to systemd. There is no easy way to switch programms between sysv and systemd modes. It took much time to adjust packages back to sysv and i can't spend that time for system maintenance. So i have to rely on the maintaining staff of an official distro.

    When i tried Devuan it wasn't ready to match my requirements. It was work in progress and i suggest everyone should test it if it meets his needs today.

    I'll stay on Ubuntu LTS for my mothers laptop, on Debian for my PC and if i have to change from sysv to systemd i took the chance to change my server from sysv to sysv by migrating from Debian to FreeBSD. I hope the later will have longer sysv support than others. ;)

    Regards

    Kai

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.4.7
    * Origin: Monobox (2:240/77)
  • From Andrew Alt@1:261/38 to Tony Langdon on Mon Aug 12 14:56:36 2019
    Tony Langdon wrote to Andrew Alt <=-

    Sounds interesting. Might be worth a look. Could put it on one of the many spare netbooks I have here. :)

    I got around to installing it on a spare desktop a couple days ago. Haven't spent
    a lot of time with it yet though.

    --
    -Andy


    ... Internal Error: The system has been taken over by sheep at line 19960
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  • From Andrew Alt@1:261/38 to Kai Richter on Mon Aug 12 14:56:36 2019
    Kai Richter wrote to Andrew Alt <=-

    Hello Andrew!

    09 Aug 19, Andrew Alt wrote to All:

    atm, I'm downloading Devuan and may install it on a spare computer
    within the next few days. Anyone try it yet?

    I did too early. The sad thing is that usual developers and maintainers are "forced" to migrate to systemd. There is no easy way to switch programms between sysv and systemd modes. It took much time to adjust packages back to sysv and i can't spend that time for system
    maintenance. So i have to rely on the maintaining staff of an official distro.

    When i tried Devuan it wasn't ready to match my requirements. It was
    work in progress and i suggest everyone should test it if it meets his needs today.

    Good advice. I put it on a spare computer, but still using Debian buster for my

    primary computing needs :)

    I'll stay on Ubuntu LTS for my mothers laptop, on Debian for my PC and
    if i have to change from sysv to systemd i took the chance to change my server from sysv to sysv by migrating from Debian to FreeBSD. I hope
    the later will have longer sysv support than others. ;)

    Thanks for the perspective.

    --
    -Andy


    ... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Andrew Alt on Tue Aug 13 19:11:00 2019
    On 08-12-19 14:56, Andrew Alt wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Tony Langdon wrote to Andrew Alt <=-

    Sounds interesting. Might be worth a look. Could put it on one of the many spare netbooks I have here. :)

    I got around to installing it on a spare desktop a couple days ago. Haven't spent
    a lot of time with it yet though.

    Let me know how you go. :)


    ... A few feathers short of a whole duck.
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  • From Alexey Vissarionov@2:5020/545 to Tony Langdon on Thu Aug 15 20:55:20 2019
    Good ${greeting_time}, Tony!

    09 Aug 2019 19:53:00, you wrote to me:

    After reading a quite long discussion (for this echoarea), I'd also
    like to share my experience.
    As I work in IT sphere since 1994, I've seen almost all Linux-based
    systems appearing, emerging and (most of them) dying. For now, I
    came to just two parameters of a GNU/Linux-based system I'd consider
    a quality mark:
    1. RPM packages
    Why RPM?

    Besause it is a quality mark.

    dpkg offers similar functionality.

    Have you tried building rpm and deb packages?

    I will use systems that use either.

    Your choice...

    2. SysV init
    Sadly, seems to be a dying breed these days, with systemd taking over
    on a lot of distros.

    We have distributions with both. And even more: some experienced admin may switch from one to other and back again.

    I haven't got my head around systemd, but know one of these days I
    really need to get to know it, because like it or not, I will be
    using systems that are based on systemd.

    The old good CentOS 6 will reach EOL this year... and we expect some users moving to us :-)

    That said, I quite like SysV init. It's straightforward and orderly.
    Most of my systems still use it.

    Same thing here. The only advantage of systemd is the startup dependencies concept, but that's really easy to implement with SysVinit - just declare "status" command as mandatory.

    E.g. `service nginx start` may check whether `service network status` is "running".


    --
    Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
    gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-ccxxix-lxxix-xlii

    ... that's why I really dislike fools.
    --- /bin/vi
    * Origin: http://openwall.com/Owl (2:5020/545)
  • From Alexey Vissarionov@2:5020/545 to Richard Menedetter on Thu Aug 15 21:06:00 2019
    Good ${greeting_time}, Richard!

    09 Aug 2019 16:15:16, you wrote to me:

    1. RPM packages
    With my experience I did not notice big differences between RPM and
    DEB. Could you elaborate what issues you have with DEB?

    Only one: I really hate it.
    And after trying to build just one simple package you'd hate it too.

    2. SysV init
    That I do understand and agree with ;)

    Welcome to the club! :-)


    --
    Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
    gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-ccxxix-lxxix-xlii

    ... god@universe:~ # cvs up && make world
    --- /bin/vi
    * Origin: http://openwall.com/Owl (2:5020/545)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Alexey Vissarionov on Fri Aug 16 19:49:00 2019
    On 08-15-19 20:55, Alexey Vissarionov wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Why RPM?

    Besause it is a quality mark.

    That could mean anything. In my world, it's "marketing speak", and I tend to ignore that without substantiating evidence.

    dpkg offers similar functionality.

    Have you tried building rpm and deb packages?

    Not what I do - irrelevant to me.

    I will use systems that use either.

    Your choice...

    That's what Linux is all about. :)

    2. SysV init
    Sadly, seems to be a dying breed these days, with systemd taking over
    on a lot of distros.

    We have distributions with both. And even more: some experienced admin
    may switch from one to other and back again.

    True. I haven't yet found documentation that I can follow for systemd. Other than that, I have no issue with it.

    I haven't got my head around systemd, but know one of these days I
    really need to get to know it, because like it or not, I will be
    using systems that are based on systemd.

    The old good CentOS 6 will reach EOL this year... and we expect some
    users moving to us :-)

    us???

    That said, I quite like SysV init. It's straightforward and orderly.
    Most of my systems still use it.

    Same thing here. The only advantage of systemd is the startup
    dependencies concept, but that's really easy to implement with SysVinit
    - just declare "status" command as mandatory.

    E.g. `service nginx start` may check whether `service network status`
    is "running".

    Yes, not hard to do in SysV.


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  • From Chicken Head to Tony Langdon on Sat Aug 17 17:33:56 2019
    Re: Re: system of choice
    By: Tony Langdon to Alexey Vissarionov on Fri Aug 09 2019 07:53 pm

    On 08-08-19 14:00, Alexey Vissarionov wrote to All <=-

    Good ${greeting_time}, All!

    After reading a quite long discussion (for this echoarea), I'd also like to share my experience.

    As I work in IT sphere since 1994, I've seen almost all Linux-based systems appearing, emerging and (most of them) dying. For now, I came to just two parameters of a GNU/Linux-based system I'd consider a quality mark:

    1. RPM packages

    Why RPM? dpkg offers similar functionality. I will use systems that use either.

    2. SysV init

    Sadly, seems to be a dying breed these days, with systemd taking over on a lot of distros. I haven't got my head around systemd, but know one of these days I really need to get to know it, because like it or not, I will be using systems that are based on systemd.

    That said, I quite like SysV init. It's straightforward and orderly. Most of my systems still use it.


    ... Spam will keep in it's can until the end of time.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51


    At my "day job" we support all variants of linux, not limited to the RPM based ones. Personally I developed a deep hatred of RPM back at the turn of the last century...dpkg has it's limitations and frustrations but I'd take that over RPM any day.

    Just had to do my first SuSE install...what an odd system. I don't like it.

    As for SysV init I hear you...I hate systemd with the fire of a thousand suns. It drove me to FreeBSD. And FreeBSD's rc-based system actually is not that bad...I find it amusing that my FreeBSD server boots up so much faster than my SystemD based Linux server.

    The AHK Gang! Live on Riot.im. When we feel like it.
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Chicken Head on Sun Aug 18 12:40:00 2019
    On 08-17-19 17:33, Chicken Head wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    At my "day job" we support all variants of linux, not limited to the
    RPM based ones. Personally I developed a deep hatred of RPM back at
    the turn of the last century...dpkg has it's limitations and
    frustrations but I'd take that over RPM any day.

    I've had mostly reasonable experiences with RPM, but have had the odd run in with RPM that was tricky to resolve.

    Just had to do my first SuSE install...what an odd system. I don't
    like it.

    I haven't used it for years. It was odd back then and I didn't like it. :)

    As for SysV init I hear you...I hate systemd with the fire of a
    thousand suns. It drove me to FreeBSD. And FreeBSD's rc-based system

    I just hate the fragmented documentation. At least SysV I could manipulate by first principles, if my rote memory failed me.

    actually is not that bad...I find it amusing that my FreeBSD server
    boots up so much faster than my SystemD based Linux server.

    My early Linux experiences were with a BSD based init, and I found that pretty straightforward to follow.


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  • From Andrew Alt@1:261/38 to Tony Langdon on Thu Aug 29 00:29:40 2019
    Tony Langdon wrote to Andrew Alt <=-

    On 08-12-19 14:56, Andrew Alt wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Tony Langdon wrote to Andrew Alt <=-

    Sounds interesting. Might be worth a look. Could put it on one of the many spare netbooks I have here. :)

    I got around to installing it on a spare desktop a couple days ago. Haven't spent
    a lot of time with it yet though.

    Let me know how you go. :)

    Hi Tony,

    Not too much news yet, I posted a brief follow-up earlier today in fido.linux-user
    after Jeff recently opened up the topic.

    --
    -Andy


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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Andrew Alt on Thu Aug 29 15:11:00 2019
    On 08-29-19 00:29, Andrew Alt wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Not too much news yet, I posted a brief follow-up earlier today in fido.linux-user

    I'm not on Usenet. Or do you mean the Fidonet echo?


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  • From Andrew Alt@1:261/38 to Tony Langdon on Thu Aug 29 17:58:18 2019
    Tony Langdon wrote to Andrew Alt <=-

    On 08-29-19 00:29, Andrew Alt wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Not too much news yet, I posted a brief follow-up earlier today in fido.linux-user

    I'm not on Usenet. Or do you mean the Fidonet echo?

    I assume it's a fido echo. In my offline reader, it shows as fido.linux-user whereas this one shows as fido.LINUX

    --
    -Andy


    ... What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind! - Homer S.
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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Andrew Alt on Fri Aug 30 09:10:00 2019
    On 08-29-19 17:58, Andrew Alt wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    I'm not on Usenet. Or do you mean the Fidonet echo?

    I assume it's a fido echo. In my offline reader, it shows as fido.linux-user whereas this one shows as fido.LINUX

    Ahh, OK. I get the full verbose echo names (gotta love QWKE ;) ).


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