• Masks and Social Distance

    From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Dr. What on Sun May 24 09:48:00 2020
    Dr. What wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    I don't see many wear them in Melbourne. Quite rare where I am, but nevertheless, we have comparitively few cases. So I don't think masks
    is what makes or breaks a contagion.

    The last person I saw wearing a mask, was handling items at the supermarket shelf, then putting them back. Kind of defeats the
    purpose.

    The masks don't do anything according to the latest information.
    COVID-19 mainly spreads through personal contact (think sneeze into
    your hand, forget to wash it, shake hands with someone else, who rubs their eye).

    As time goes on and we get more information, we are finding that everything that we've done so far as been wrong and based on old (and sometimes just false) information.

    There is also a baffling lack of information on how people could boost their immune systems to avoid getting in the first place. I've heard that Vitamin D levels plays a significant role in how severe the symptoms are. Now with people locked inside, are they told to keep vitamin D levels up? Keep a healthy diet? I don't bother with a mask. I'm not too worried about the virus. At this point, I'd rather take my chances with COVID-19 than be locked down.

    As I said, I don't see many masks in Melbourne, though I don't get out much so its based on very limited observation. But where I work, with contractors coming in, no masks. Yet our infection rates are low.

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  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Dr. What on Sun May 24 09:55:00 2020
    Dr. What wrote to MRO <=-

    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    at the very core of china is pride and vanity. they do anything and say anything for 'face'. they have a garbage bin and another bin marked recycle. they both go to the same chute. it makes them feel good they
    are recycling, but they are not doing it. that's a prime example of
    how china thinks. ---

    That's the problem with any of these "progressive" countries.

    The people in charge are elitists and they have the egos to prove it.
    They have a need to be seen as the "experts" by everyone and want
    people to just blindly trust what they have to say.

    Admitting that they are wrong 1) hurts their ego and 2) tarnishes their title of "expert". That's why they tend to double down on bad
    decisions, hoping that they will succeed (even though that's
    impossible), and compounding their error until it becomes huge and
    almost impossible to easily fix.

    Take the COVID-19 shutdowns here in the U.S. As more data came in, and more of the models we proven to be false, it would have been easy to
    say "OK. We had bad data and our decisions were wrong. Now with
    better data, we are going to lift the shutdowns." But no. The
    elitists double down on their bad decision made with bad data. And
    now, when the shutdowns are finally lifted, many companies won't be
    coming back - making things even worse.

    Having direct experience with management 'elite' has smashed any confidence or respect. The requirement at that position is to be assertive and have confidence, not to reflect or think. Reflection can lead to doubt, and worse, to DISSENT, so don't do it! Just act exactly as your social peers expect you to act, and you'll go far. It is amazing how far people who don't know what they are doing can get. I've seen it enough personally to have no doubt that it is true also in government and other organisations.

    And yes, you are right, when wrong, double down.

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  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to DENNISK on Sat May 23 19:58:00 2020
    Oh, I'm not fan of the system to be sure. Communism in Europe fell when I was
    11, and it just wasn't really covered that much in Secondary School, so I had to do my own research into not only why it was such a big deal, but also why i
    didn't seem as taboo as Nazism. Maybe things are different in Australia, but we just didn't really hear much about it. There is a lot of focus on ensuring
    that any type of Nationalism is stamped out, lest it lead to Hitler, but for some reason the type of Political Correctness which made Communism pathologica
    (they had "Political Rectitude", the same thing), is allowed to flourish. My guess is in Communism, intellectuals rule, so intellectuals here don't mind such a system.

    That much is the same here. I am not so sure that true intellectuals
    rule... seems a lot of the people I know who are of that mind are "intellectuals" in the air-quotes sense, like they didn't graduate high
    school or college (or did so with some impractical degree) but think they
    are smarter than everyone else. I think of them as more elitist than "intellectual."

    They also get really triggered if someone points out that communist and
    fascist regimes, both being totalitarian, have more in common than they
    don't.

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  • From Nightfox@DIGDIST to Moondog on Sat May 23 22:10:19 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Moondog to Nightfox on Sat May 23 2020 10:07 pm

    Before the 10 cent deposit law in Michigan, it was common to see aluminum cans along the sides of roads. Some areas it looked like people dumped their trash by the road. That all changed when the deposit law came into effect. Some would still throw away or toss cans out, but now they get

    Interesting.. I occasionally see litter here, but it tends to be other things rather than aluminum cans.

    Nightfox

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  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sun May 24 15:51:00 2020
    On 05-24-20 09:48, Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-

    There is also a baffling lack of information on how people could boost their immune systems to avoid getting in the first place. I've heard

    I agree on general immune health. That wouldn't go astray at any time. Even in a normal year, it will help with colds and flu.

    that Vitamin D levels plays a significant role in how severe the
    symptoms are. Now with people locked inside, are they told to keep

    I haven't heard that, but wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Any studies you can point to?

    vitamin D levels up? Keep a healthy diet? I don't bother with a mask.
    I'm not too worried about the virus. At this point, I'd rather take
    my chances with COVID-19 than be locked down.

    I don't use a mask either, because from what I've read/seen, they're pointless for most healthy people. They _may_ (to a limited extent) help prevent an infected person passing the virus on, by reducing one route of transmission (droplets in the air), but won't do much for other routes, like contact (either direct or via shared objects). Basic hygiene will work better there.

    And yeah, a week of mandatory isolation while waiting for test results reminded me that getting out where possible is a better option!

    As I said, I don't see many masks in Melbourne, though I don't get out much so its based on very limited observation. But where I work, with contractors coming in, no masks. Yet our infection rates are low.

    I've seen a number in local shops. Each to their own, I suppose. Only time I've worn one was when I got tested a few weeks ago, where it was mandatory. Took it off in the car on the way home. :)


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  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sun May 24 15:58:00 2020
    On 05-24-20 09:43, Dennisk wrote to Arelor <=-

    I've wondered if whether parliament should be like jury duty, people
    who are eligible (have a minimum standard of education, work history)
    are drafted to serve. Just a thought...

    That reminded me of an Arthur C Clarke novel "The Songs of Distant Earth". Most of the story takes place on a planet occupied by a long forgotten human colony that had landed around a century earlier (give or take). One of the things that did get mentioned was the process of appointing the President for the colony, which happened in 2 stages:

    1. Anyone who actually wanted the job was automatically eliminated from contention.

    2. From the remaining eligible people, a name was drawn at random. That person became the President for the next term.


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  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Vk3jed on Sun May 24 11:31:08 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Vk3jed to Dennisk on Sun May 24 2020 03:51 pm

    I haven't heard that, but wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Any studies you can point to?

    There does seem to be something with vitamin D -

    https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/05/04/vitamin-d-covid-19-evidence-so-far-14763

    I don't use a mask either, because from what I've read/seen, they're pointless for most healthy people. They _may_ (to a limited extent) help prevent an infected person passing the virus on, by reducing one route of transmission (droplets in the air), but won't do much for other routes, like contact (either direct or via shared objects). Basic hygiene will work better there.

    So, I'm like most people, somewhere in the middle. People need to eat so they need to work. It's true, doesn't seem bad for most. That being said, I can't tell you how many stories keep coming out from people losing loved ones or ending up dire straits int he hospital here in America shortly after making posts to Facebook or social media just like this.

    I had a friend who spent a month on a ventilator. I also have a friend of a friend who was a marathon runner and it sounds like he's not going to make it. Wearing a mask has shown better than the initial "it only partially helps stop the spread to someone else" kinda like when they said "this was just the flu."

    Plus now that crazy kids disease that is connected -

    https://www.cnet.com/health/can-kids-get-covid-19-what-we-know-about-this-kawasaki-like-disease-affecting-children/

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  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Dennisk on Sun May 24 13:23:00 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dennisk to Dr. What on Sun May 24 2020 09:48 am

    Dr. What wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    I don't see many wear them in Melbourne. Quite rare where I am, but nevertheless, we have comparitively few cases. So I don't think masks is what makes or breaks a contagion.

    The last person I saw wearing a mask, was handling items at the supermarket shelf, then putting them back. Kind of defeats the purpose.

    The masks don't do anything according to the latest information. COVID-19 mainly spreads through personal contact (think sneeze into your hand, forget to wash it, shake hands with someone else, who rubs their eye).

    As time goes on and we get more information, we are finding that everything that we've done so far as been wrong and based on old (and sometimes just false) information.

    There is also a baffling lack of information on how people could boost their immune systems to avoid getting in the first place. I've heard that Vitamin levels plays a significant role in how severe the symptoms are. Now with people locked inside, are they told to keep vitamin D levels up? Keep a healthy diet? I don't bother with a mask. I'm not too worried about the virus. At this point, I'd rather take my chances with COVID-19 than be lock down.

    As I said, I don't see many masks in Melbourne, though I don't get out much its based on very limited observation. But where I work, with contractors coming in, no masks. Yet our infection rates are low.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    After the initial month of lockdown, I thought we should've seen the it run it's course in whoever had it, or whoever was around someone who had it.

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  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Sun May 24 13:31:00 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Vk3jed to Dennisk on Sun May 24 2020 03:58 pm

    On 05-24-20 09:43, Dennisk wrote to Arelor <=-

    I've wondered if whether parliament should be like jury duty, people who are eligible (have a minimum standard of education, work history) are drafted to serve. Just a thought...

    That reminded me of an Arthur C Clarke novel "The Songs of Distant Earth". Most of the story takes place on a planet occupied by a long forgotten human colony that had landed around a century earlier (give or take). One of the things that did get mentioned was the process of appointing the President fo the colony, which happened in 2 stages:

    1. Anyone who actually wanted the job was automatically eliminated from contention.

    2. From the remaining eligible people, a name was drawn at random. That person became the President for the next term.


    ... Die, my dear doctor? That's the last thing I shall do.

    I sit on a board of directors for a non-profit conservation club / shooting range. Everyone gripes about the president, however no one wants to sep up
    and take the job. It's a no pay position, and the only perks are getting
    dues paid and having access to the indoor pistol range 24/7. Most of the presidents we had were good, and at least one wasby no means transparent with regards to where some of the money was going, and would give a different answer to anyone asking the same question.

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  • From Nightfox@DIGDIST to Moondog on Sun May 24 15:42:52 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Moondog to Dennisk on Sun May 24 2020 01:23 pm

    After the initial month of lockdown, I thought we should've seen the it run it's course in whoever had it, or whoever was around someone who had it.

    I think it would take quite a bit longer than that to run its course. And with places starting to open up again, I've heard people say they're concerned about a 2nd wave of COVID that might hit even harder than the first.

    Nightfox

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  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to The Lizard Master on Mon May 25 08:42:00 2020
    On 05-24-20 11:31, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    There does seem to be something with vitamin D -

    https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/05/04/vitamin-d-covid-19-evidence-so-far- 14763

    Interesting. Taken with the caveats that come with quickly released studies (lack of peer review, causation vs correlation, etc), it does seem that there may be something here. For myself, Vitamin D is something I generally don't have to worry out. I spend considerable time outside all year round, and my annual checkups have never indicated a deficiency here (surprise surprise! :D
    .

    So, I'm like most people, somewhere in the middle. People need to eat
    so they need to work. It's true, doesn't seem bad for most. That
    being said, I can't tell you how many stories keep coming out from
    people losing loved ones or ending up dire straits int he hospital here in America shortly after making posts to Facebook or social media just like this.

    Yeah, there is a bit of hit and miss with who cops severe effects and who doesn't. And a lot of the severe effects seem to be related to immune overreaction than the virus itself, from what I've seen.

    I had a friend who spent a month on a ventilator. I also have a friend of a friend who was a marathon runner and it sounds like he's not going to make it. Wearing a mask has shown better than the initial "it only

    It is known that very long distance running can lead to a compromised immune system - in the case of longer distances like the marathon and ultras, while more recreational patterns of running, with appropriate rest does strengthen the immune system. There have been articles encouraging people to be active, but think twice about taking on that (virtual) marathon.

    partially helps stop the spread to someone else" kinda like when they said "this was just the flu."

    Got any evidence? Unless I hear solid evidence otherwise, I feel that the masks are best left for the medics who need all the protection they can get, and any specific cases that justify them.

    Plus now that crazy kids disease that is connected -

    Yeah, that's still rare but looks nasty for kids. It has been reported here, though we haven't had a local case. One article I read (doubt I could find it now) described COVID-19 as being like 3 distince diseases, which were:

    1. A mild flu like infection.
    2. A potentially fatal illness with serious symptoms generally requiring hospitalisation and involving immune over response.
    3. A systemic inflammation that occurs rarely in children (as per the link below).

    https://www.cnet.com/health/can-kids-get-covid-19-what-we-know-about-thi s-kawasaki-like-disease-affecting-children/

    And I thought Kawasaki disease was an uncontrollable urge to ride Japanese motorcycles. ;)


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  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Moondog on Mon May 25 08:48:00 2020
    On 05-24-20 13:31, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I sit on a board of directors for a non-profit conservation club / shooting range. Everyone gripes about the president, however no one
    wants to sep up and take the job. It's a no pay position, and the only perks are getting dues paid and having access to the indoor pistol
    range 24/7. Most of the presidents we had were good, and at least one wasby no means transparent with regards to where some of the money was going, and would give a different answer to anyone asking the same question.

    Yes, that sounds like the typical non profit/community group president, though here, most presidents or board/committee members still have to pay their own dues. It's not the easiest job in the world, but for most, it's a labour of love and commitment towards the organisation and its members. However, in my book, the hardest job on a board is the secretary. That's a very full on job, and I respect anyone willing to stand up and do it. Not a job I'd take on myself, paid or unpaid.

    Unfortunately, some boards do lose sight of what their role is supposed to be and become self serving, and they give everyone a bad name. :(

    I have help a president role once or twice, vice president on a couple and ordinary board member on many occasions for various organisations.


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  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Dumas Walker on Mon May 25 19:19:00 2020
    Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-

    Oh, I'm not fan of the system to be sure. Communism in Europe fell when I
    was

    11, and it just wasn't really covered that much in Secondary School, so I
    had
    to do my own research into not only why it was such a big deal, but also why
    i

    didn't seem as taboo as Nazism. Maybe things are different in Australia,
    but
    we just didn't really hear much about it. There is a lot of focus on
    ensuring

    that any type of Nationalism is stamped out, lest it lead to Hitler, but for some reason the type of Political Correctness which made Communism
    pathologica

    (they had "Political Rectitude", the same thing), is allowed to flourish.
    My
    guess is in Communism, intellectuals rule, so intellectuals here don't mind such a system.

    That much is the same here. I am not so sure that true intellectuals rule... seems a lot of the people I know who are of that mind are "intellectuals" in the air-quotes sense, like they didn't graduate high school or college (or did so with some impractical degree) but think
    they are smarter than everyone else. I think of them as more elitist
    than "intellectual."

    They also get really triggered if someone points out that communist and fascist regimes, both being totalitarian, have more in common than they don't.

    You'll find quite a few in academia, and activists are protected on campus. Intellectuals are a class of people who seek or assume power or authority. In the Communist manifesto, it explicitely says that Intellectuals will run the system, a class separate to workers. That many of these self styles intellectuals are quite silly, yes, yes they are. Is this why there is bellachying about "anti-intellectualism" and the rise of "populism?" Perhaps so.

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  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Vk3jed on Mon May 25 19:25:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 05-24-20 09:48, Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-

    There is also a baffling lack of information on how people could boost their immune systems to avoid getting in the first place. I've heard

    I agree on general immune health. That wouldn't go astray at any time.
    Even in a normal year, it will help with colds and flu.

    that Vitamin D levels plays a significant role in how severe the
    symptoms are. Now with people locked inside, are they told to keep

    I haven't heard that, but wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
    Any studies you can point to?

    I actually heard it on a Joe Rogan podcast, but a quick web search reveals results.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32377965/

    among others.

    vitamin D levels up? Keep a healthy diet? I don't bother with a mask.
    I'm not too worried about the virus. At this point, I'd rather take
    my chances with COVID-19 than be locked down.

    I don't use a mask either, because from what I've read/seen, they're pointless for most healthy people. They _may_ (to a limited extent)
    help prevent an infected person passing the virus on, by reducing one route of transmission (droplets in the air), but won't do much for
    other routes, like contact (either direct or via shared objects).
    Basic hygiene will work better there.

    And yeah, a week of mandatory isolation while waiting for test results reminded me that getting out where possible is a better option!

    One thing I see at work is people running their hands down the bannisters. A far more likely source of transmission.

    As I said, I don't see many masks in Melbourne, though I don't get out much so its based on very limited observation. But where I work, with contractors coming in, no masks. Yet our infection rates are low.

    I've seen a number in local shops. Each to their own, I suppose. Only time I've worn one was when I got tested a few weeks ago, where it was mandatory. Took it off in the car on the way home. :)

    Must just be my suburb. I see a lot of people out on the weekends too, and kids hanging out (this was weeks ago), so I don't think people here care as much.


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  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Vk3jed on Mon May 25 19:39:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 05-24-20 09:43, Dennisk wrote to Arelor <=-

    I've wondered if whether parliament should be like jury duty, people
    who are eligible (have a minimum standard of education, work history)
    are drafted to serve. Just a thought...

    That reminded me of an Arthur C Clarke novel "The Songs of Distant
    Earth". Most of the story takes place on a planet occupied by a long forgotten human colony that had landed around a century earlier (give
    or take). One of the things that did get mentioned was the process of appointing the President for the colony, which happened in 2 stages:

    1. Anyone who actually wanted the job was automatically eliminated
    from contention.

    2. From the remaining eligible people, a name was drawn at random.
    That person became the President for the next term.

    I do remember that in the book. Another option is nomination. If someone gets enough nominations, they go in the draw. You would probably need a combination of draftees and professionals, and maybe it wouldn't work at all. But either way, I think being governed by career politicians has proven to be a failure.

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  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Dennisk on Mon May 25 11:00:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-

    There is also a baffling lack of information on how people could boost their immune systems to avoid getting in the first place. I've heard
    that Vitamin D levels plays a significant role in how severe the
    symptoms are. Now with people locked inside, are they told to keep vitamin D levels up? Keep a healthy diet? I don't bother with a mask.
    I'm not too worried about the virus. At this point, I'd rather take
    my chances with COVID-19 than be locked down.

    If you assume that the Media is just the Left's propaganda ministry, it's not baffling at all.

    Some groups out there just want to create fear and any news that allays that fear is dropped and covered up.

    We've known for quite some time now that COVID-19 hits people who are unhealthy. The Vitamin D and healthy diet are just more details to that.

    My wife and I aren't too worried either. We caught a mysterious illness back in Dec./Jan. and figured it was COVID-19 (we are hoping to get an antibody test so prove that). But we don't wear masks and we get out and walk every day, plus we have maintained our healthy diet.

    As I said, I don't see many masks in Melbourne, though I don't get out much so its based on very limited observation. But where I work, with contractors coming in, no masks. Yet our infection rates are low.

    From what I'm seeing in my local area, people are only wearing masks as more of a symbol. They are ignoring the stay-at-home rules. They getting out as much as they can. The beaches have many people (parking is hard because they closed the parking lots). I think most people realize that this is BS.

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  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Dumas Walker on Mon May 25 11:15:00 2020
    Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-

    That much is the same here. I am not so sure that true intellectuals rule... seems a lot of the people I know who are of that mind are "intellectuals" in the air-quotes sense, like they didn't graduate high school or college (or did so with some impractical degree) but think
    they are smarter than everyone else. I think of them as more elitist
    than "intellectual."

    When I've thought about the question "who likes Socialism?", I've found that I can group them into 3 kinds of people:
    1. The power hungry. Socialism is rule by gov't. If you run the gov't, you rule the people.
    2. The elite. As you've said, they think that they are smarter than everyone else. They have an attitude of "Things would be so much better if I ran everything." They are naive enough to think that the power hungry will allow them to implement their ideas, and ignorant enough to think that their ideas can actually work.
    3. The lazy and stupid.

    They also get really triggered if someone points out that communist and fascist regimes, both being totalitarian, have more in common than they don't.

    They get triggered whenever you point out a fact that goes against their Narrative. Because, in their mind, their Narrative is "truth". I liken them to the ignorant religious person when you question anything about their beliefs. It shakes their world because it makes them question whether what they believe is true.


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  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Nightfox on Mon May 25 11:19:00 2020
    Nightfox wrote to Moondog <=-

    I think it would take quite a bit longer than that to run its course.
    And with places starting to open up again, I've heard people say
    they're concerned about a 2nd wave of COVID that might hit even harder than the first.

    We're fighting multiple battles.

    Against COVID-19 (which is actually the least of our worries).
    Against the power grab by the Left - who use public panic to gain more power. Against misinformation by the Ministry of Truth (i.e. the left-wing media) who pump up the fear for many reasons.

    We've already dealt with COVID-19 - we know who the at-risk groups are, we have a treatment and we know how it spreads.
    The power grab will take more time - and probably courts - to take care of and years (election cycles) to correct.
    But the misinformation will hang around for a long, long time.


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  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to DENNISK on Mon May 25 11:27:00 2020
    system, a class separate to workers. That many of these self styles intellectuals are quite silly, yes, yes they are. Is this why there is bellachying about "anti-intellectualism" and the rise of "populism?" Perhaps so.

    Yes, they don't like for their (lack of) intellectualism to be pointed out.
    <GRIN>


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  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to NIGHTFOX on Mon May 25 11:33:00 2020
    I think it would take quite a bit longer than that to run its course. And with
    places starting to open up again, I've heard people say they're concerned about
    a 2nd wave of COVID that might hit even harder than the first.

    I suspect it will. Just this morning, I saw a crawler on the news that
    said that Trump was tightening travel restrictions to/from Brazil because
    that country has seen a spike/second wave of infections.

    Honestly, I found myself wondering early on whether or not there would not
    be a second wave no matter how long we waited to reopen. Like maybe we
    should have just let it run its course the first time. Yes, I am glad we
    did not, but I still wonder.


    * SLMR 2.1a * !edis gnorw eht morf siht ta gnikool era uoY

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Nightfox@DIGDIST to Dumas Walker on Mon May 25 10:17:09 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dumas Walker to NIGHTFOX on Mon May 25 2020 11:33 am

    And with places starting to open up again, I've heard people say
    they're concerned about a 2nd wave of COVID that might hit even harder
    than the first.

    I suspect it will. Just this morning, I saw a crawler on the news that said that Trump was tightening travel restrictions to/from Brazil because that country has seen a spike/second wave of infections.

    Brazil's president Bolsonaro has been dismissing COVID as no big deal.
    When asked by a reporter about what he thinks about the rising COVID death toll in Brazil, he said "What do you want me to do about it? I'm not the Messiah, I don't work miracles."
    https://youtu.be/SQYvA6NjOdo

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Vk3jed on Mon May 25 10:50:34 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Vk3jed to The Lizard Master on Mon May 25 2020 08:42 am

    Interesting. Taken with the caveats that come with quickly released studies (lack of peer review, causation vs correlation, etc), it does seem that there may be something here. For myself, Vitamin D is something I generally don't have to worry out. I spend considerable time outside all year round, and my annual checkups have never indicated a deficiency here (surprise surprise! :D

    I got a physical many years ago that showed Vitamin D deficiency. The doc wanted me to start taking Vitamin D. So I looked it up, and was like damn, that's an important one, but also you can take too much. So I started running outside (not marathons lol, but I have done one), and taking a men's one a day. With those two small life changes, I've always had solid D numbers.

    Got any evidence? Unless I hear solid evidence otherwise, I feel that the masks are best left for the medics who need all the protection they can get, and any specific cases that justify them.

    I used to raise chickens and when I changed the poop and stuff, I'd wear N95 masks. I still had a shed sitting in a closet. When this started I donated them to a hospital. I don't have any studies at the ready, but some things I have read. I think I also saw that there was a correlation between countries that normally wear masks outside vs spread (I realize that may be anecdotal).

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From DaiTengu@ENSEMBLE to HusTler on Mon May 25 12:49:48 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: HusTler to DaiTengu on Tue May 19 2020 12:38 pm

    I'd really like to ask the people not wearing masks "Why are'nt you wearing a mask?" Do you feel you're invincible? Do you just not care about others?"

    What do I do if I see someone without a mask sneeze on the meat? Or are grocers not selling meat? I think I'm better off staying home. I don't need to see this shit.

    I want to yell "Wear a fucking mask!" at every single person who isn't wearing one that I see in a grocery store. It won't do any good though.

    I'm not easily "stressed out" or whatever, but any time I have to go to the grocery store for 30 minutes, I'm completely drained by the time I get home.

    DaiTengu

    ... Music is essentially useless, as life is.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Mon May 25 11:10:00 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Dist
    By: Vk3jed to The Lizard Master on Mon May 25 2020 08:42 am



    Got any evidence? Unless I hear solid evidence otherwise, I feel that the masks are best left for the medics who need all the protection they can get, and any specific cases that justify them.


    Masks not only protect from airborne pathoigens, but for the most part now
    they prevent the spread of bodily fluids leaving the mouth and nose. An analogy that appeared the other day was how E coli bacteria is combatted. At some point e coli is introduced by somebody touching fecal matter, whther
    it's from manure spread on vegetables or someone not washing their hands.
    Best defense is to constantly wash down areas that can come into contact
    with unwashed hands, and enforce washing hands. if someone is walking around without a mask coughing, and spitting juices while they speak, they can cover
    a large area with their mouths and unwashed hands. Wearing a mask has become
    a courtesy to your fellow human beings.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Mon May 25 11:18:00 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Mon May 25 2020 08:48 am

    On 05-24-20 13:31, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I sit on a board of directors for a non-profit conservation club / shooting range. Everyone gripes about the president, however no one wants to sep up and take the job. It's a no pay position, and the only perks are getting dues paid and having access to the indoor pistol range 24/7. Most of the presidents we had were good, and at least one wasby no means transparent with regards to where some of the money was going, and would give a different answer to anyone asking the same question.

    Yes, that sounds like the typical non profit/community group president, thou here, most presidents or board/committee members still have to pay their own dues. It's not the easiest job in the world, but for most, it's a labour of love and commitment towards the organisation and its members. However, in m book, the hardest job on a board is the secretary. That's a very full on jo and I respect anyone willing to stand up and do it. Not a job I'd take on myself, paid or unpaid.

    Unfortunately, some boards do lose sight of what their role is supposed to b and become self serving, and they give everyone a bad name. :(

    I have help a president role once or twice, vice president on a couple and ordinary board member on many occasions for various organisations.


    ... You're from the planet Earth, aren't you?

    Treasurer and membership roles are the positions we see the most burnout. Since we've had some older board members step down, we have been able to utilize more technology to streamline our processes. Since I've been a
    member, we rose from 260 member 20 years ago to 530. At one time we
    considered capping our membership at 300, and now we figure 600 is where we'd want to rop off at. It's become more than just finding eager people to
    accept the positions but also they need skills or abiliites they can bring to the board.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Gamgee@PALANT to DaiTengu on Mon May 25 17:02:00 2020
    DaiTengu wrote to HusTler <=-

    I want to yell "Wear a fucking mask!" at every single person who
    isn't wearing one that I see in a grocery store. It won't do any
    good though.

    What won't do any good? ...the yelling, or the mask...? ;-)

    I'm not easily "stressed out" or whatever, but any time I have
    to go to the grocery store for 30 minutes, I'm completely drained
    by the time I get home.

    I got news for ya... You *ARE* easily stressed out, if that
    little evolution stresses you out. No doubt about that.


    ... Backup? I've never had troub**&{[} 3$$ERROR
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From DaiTengu@ENSEMBLE to Dr. What on Mon May 25 18:27:22 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dr. What to Dennisk on Mon May 25 2020 11:00 am

    If you assume that the Media is just the Left's propaganda ministry, it's not baffling at all.

    Some groups out there just want to create fear and any news that allays that fear is dropped and covered up.

    GUYS! GUYS! MUSLIMS WANT TO COME OVER HERE AND IMPLEMENT SHARIA LAW IN THE UNITED STATES!

    You could turn on Fox News any time 2001-2017 and hear something similar to that.

    Trump was elected on fearmongering, because the republicans are afraid of their own shadow.

    DaiTengu

    ... There are certain things men must do to remain men.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Dr. What on Mon May 25 19:07:43 2020
    Re: Communist "Intellectuals"
    By: Dr. What to Dumas Walker on Mon May 25 2020 11:15 am

    When I've thought about the question "who likes Socialism?", I've found that I can group them into 3 kinds of people:
    1. The power hungry. Socialism is rule by gov't. If you run the gov't, you rule the people.
    2. The elite. As you've said, they think that they are smarter than everyone else. They have an attitude of "Things would be so much better if I ran everything." They are naive enough to think that the power hungry will allow them to implement their ideas, and ignorant enough to think that their ideas can actually work.
    3. The lazy and stupid.

    My guess is that there is something ironic here, but I'm too lazy to figure it out. So peg me for #3.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Vk3jed on Mon May 25 19:10:45 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Vk3jed to The Lizard Master on Mon May 25 2020 08:42 am

    partially helps stop the spread to someone else" kinda like when they said "this was just the flu."

    Got any evidence? Unless I hear solid evidence otherwise, I feel that the masks are best left for the medics who need all the protection they can get, and any specific cases that justify them.

    Not saying this counts, but interesting -

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infections-would-plummet-new-study-says

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From MRO@BBSESINF to Moondog on Mon May 25 18:48:25 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Dist
    By: Moondog to Vk3jed on Mon May 25 2020 11:10 am

    with unwashed hands, and enforce washing hands. if someone is walking aroun without a mask coughing, and spitting juices while they speak, they can cove a large area with their mouths and unwashed hands. Wearing a mask has becom a courtesy to your fellow human beings.


    i dont believe masks are effective. i think we have no control over this covid19 and the masks and other dumb shit we do makes us feel in control.

    do you pump gas? go to a store?

    you lose. you are exposed.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From DaiTengu@ENSEMBLE to Gamgee on Mon May 25 18:40:57 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Gamgee to DaiTengu on Mon May 25 2020 05:02 pm

    I want to yell "Wear a fucking mask!" at every single person who
    isn't wearing one that I see in a grocery store. It won't do any
    good though.

    What won't do any good? ...the yelling, or the mask...? ;-)

    The yelling. there's plenty of scientific evidence to show even the simplest of face coverings reduses the chance of someone infecting another person by 50% or more.



    I'm not easily "stressed out" or whatever, but any time I have
    to go to the grocery store for 30 minutes, I'm completely drained
    by the time I get home.

    I got news for ya... You *ARE* easily stressed out, if that
    little evolution stresses you out. No doubt about that.

    What stresses me out is people crawling up on me while I'm patently waiting 6 feet away from someone else to grab something from the shelves, or treating grocery shopping like it's a family outing. They show up with 4 adults and 8 kids, and they let their germ-infested crotchgoblins run around, stick their fingers in their mouth, and then touch everything.

    Granted, that's an extreme example, but fuck. My wife has a compromised immune system. My parents are in their late 80s, and my dad has type 1 diabetes. If I was to bring home that coronavirus, it's entirely possible I'd kill the 3 most important people in my life right now.

    So, fuck yeah I'm stressed out. and I'll take every goddamn precaution I can, and I'll get angry because someone refuses to wear a mask simply because "it looks silly" or "it's uncomfortable".

    Wear your fucking mask. It's not for your own good, it's for everyone else's.

    DaiTengu

    ... After two days in hospital, I took a turn for the nurse.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Nightfox@DIGDIST to MRO on Mon May 25 18:15:58 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Dist
    By: MRO to Moondog on Mon May 25 2020 06:48 pm

    do you pump gas? go to a store?

    you lose. you are exposed.

    In Oregon where I live, people aren't allowed to pump their own gas by law. Oregon has gas station attendants who will pump gas for you. Recently, during the COVID lockdown, Oregon decided they'd let people pump their own gas for their car. As far as spreading germs, the idea seemed counter-intuitive to me.. I'd think it would be safer to continue to let gas station attendants pump gas for you so that not everyone is touching the pumps and potentially spreading COVID.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From HusTler@HAVENS to DaiTengu on Mon May 25 22:05:41 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: DaiTengu to HusTler on Mon May 25 2020 12:49 pm

    I want to yell "Wear a fucking mask!" at every single person who isn't weari one that I see in a grocery store. It won't do any good though.

    I'm not easily "stressed out" or whatever, but any time I have to go to the grocery store for 30 minutes, I'm completely drained by the time I get home.


    I feel the same way. Did you see on the news all the people flocking to the beaches without masks on? Let's see if there's a "second wave". I doubt people would grow a brain even if there is one.

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From DaiTengu@ENSEMBLE to The Lizard Master on Mon May 25 23:11:34 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: The Lizard Master to Vk3jed on Mon May 25 2020 07:10 pm

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infections-would-pl ummet-new-study-says

    Yep, it's all about reducing the R0 number. If you reduce the average number of people an infected individual infects, the virus eventually peters out.

    DaiTengu

    ... I've always been a bit maturer that what I am.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@ENSEMBLE to MRO on Mon May 25 23:12:32 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Dist
    By: MRO to Moondog on Mon May 25 2020 06:48 pm

    i dont believe masks are effective. i think we have no control over this covid19 and the masks and other dumb shit we do makes us feel in control.

    do you pump gas? go to a store?

    you lose. you are exposed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfXMjyXvA-o

    DaiTengu

    ... I often quote myself; it adds spice to my conversation.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Wizzkidd@MUTINY to The Lizard Master on Mon May 25 21:17:03 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: The Lizard Master to Vk3jed on Mon May 25 2020 10:50:34

    I used to raise chickens and when I changed the poop and stuff, I'd wear
    Why did you change the poop?

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ MutinyBBS.com port 2332
  • From DaiTengu@ENSEMBLE to HusTler on Tue May 26 00:49:54 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: HusTler to DaiTengu on Mon May 25 2020 10:05 pm

    I'm not easily "stressed out" or whatever, but any time I have to go
    to the grocery store for 30 minutes, I'm completely drained by the
    time I get home.


    I feel the same way. Did you see on the news all the people flocking to the beaches without masks on? Let's see if there's a "second wave". I doubt people would grow a brain even if there is one.

    I don't watch any real "TV" news, but I have seen pictures online.

    I kind of feel we're in a 12 Monkeys scenario at this point.



    DaiTengu

    ... Go on, be yourself! There isn't anyone better qualified.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Dennisk on Tue May 26 19:55:00 2020
    On 05-25-20 19:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I actually heard it on a Joe Rogan podcast, but a quick web search
    reveals results.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32377965/

    Yeah, someone pointed me to a study the other day, definitely something to keep an eye on. As I said, my Vitamin D levels have been consistently good, helped by a good diet and lots of sun exposure.

    One thing I see at work is people running their hands down the
    bannisters. A far more likely source of transmission.

    Totally, now that's the sort of thing you really want to avoid. :)

    Must just be my suburb. I see a lot of people out on the weekends too,
    and kids hanging out (this was weeks ago), so I don't think people here care as much.

    That's possible too.


    ... It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Dennisk on Tue May 26 19:56:00 2020
    On 05-25-20 19:39, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I do remember that in the book. Another option is nomination. If
    someone gets enough nominations, they go in the draw. You would
    probably need a combination of draftees and professionals, and maybe it wouldn't work at all. But either way, I think being governed by career politicians has proven to be a failure.

    I think something has to change. As you point out, career politicians haven't always served us well. :/


    ... I can't promise anything but I can promise 100%.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to The Lizard Master on Tue May 26 20:03:00 2020
    On 05-25-20 10:50, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I got a physical many years ago that showed Vitamin D deficiency. The doc wanted me to start taking Vitamin D. So I looked it up, and was
    like damn, that's an important one, but also you can take too much. So
    I started running outside (not marathons lol, but I have done one), and taking a men's one a day. With those two small life changes, I've
    always had solid D numbers.

    Well, I train and compete outside all year rount (though non of the latter since COVID-19 came along), but I also spend time outside for all sorts of things, even ham radio - I've built myself a remote base that I can access with a nandheld radio from anywhere in or around the house, so I can enjoy time in the sun while chatting on the radio. I also take regular walks and eat some good sources regularly (salmon and tuna).

    I used to raise chickens and when I changed the poop and stuff, I'd
    wear N95 masks. I still had a shed sitting in a closet. When this started I donated them to a hospital. I don't have any studies at the ready, but some things I have read. I think I also saw that there was
    a correlation between countries that normally wear masks outside vs spread (I realize that may be anecdotal).

    Australia's medical advisers advised that masks were unnecessary, and our infection rates are very low. Other factors are obviously more important.


    ... Honk if you love peace and quiet.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Moondog on Tue May 26 20:05:00 2020
    On 05-25-20 11:10, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Masks not only protect from airborne pathoigens, but for the most part
    now they prevent the spread of bodily fluids leaving the mouth and

    Here, it's the latter that is considered more important, hency why the advice here is only for people who are infected or suspected of being infected wear masks, along with medical and other workers who are in frequent close contact.


    ... Ya know, some days life is just one non sequitur after catfish.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Moondog on Tue May 26 20:09:00 2020
    On 05-25-20 11:18, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Treasurer and membership roles are the positions we see the most
    burnout. Since we've had some older board members step down, we have

    Yes, I can understand that fully. They are busy positions.

    been able to utilize more technology to streamline our processes.
    Since I've been a member, we rose from 260 member 20 years ago to 530.
    At one time we considered capping our membership at 300, and now we
    figure 600 is where we'd want to rop off at. It's become more than
    just finding eager people to accept the positions but also they need skills or abiliites they can bring to the board.

    Modernisation can certainly help manage the workload in those key roles and allow a board to do more with the same resources or even less. And sometimes it does require a changing of the guard to implement major changes like new technology.


    ... The manner in which it is given is worth more than the gift.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to The Lizard Master on Tue May 26 20:19:00 2020
    On 05-25-20 19:10, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Not saying this counts, but interesting -

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infections-would- plummet-new-study-says

    Interesting, there does seem to be some good evidence in there.

    ... This tagline provided free of charge. Taxes may apply.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Arelor to DaiTengu on Tue May 26 06:45:48 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: DaiTengu to Dr. What on Mon May 25 2020 06:27 pm

    Trump was elected on fearmongering, because the republicans are afraid of th own shadow.

    DaiTengu

    My theory is that he got elected as a backslash against leftist abuse of identitary politics, theory I have already shared around.

    Cheers.
  • From Arelor to MRO on Tue May 26 06:54:53 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Dist
    By: MRO to Moondog on Mon May 25 2020 06:48 pm

    Re: Re: Masks and Social Dist
    By: Moondog to Vk3jed on Mon May 25 2020 11:10 am

    with unwashed hands, and enforce washing hands. if someone is walking ar without a mask coughing, and spitting juices while they speak, they can c a large area with their mouths and unwashed hands. Wearing a mask has be a courtesy to your fellow human beings.


    i dont believe masks are effective. i think we have no control over this covid19 and the masks and other dumb shit we do makes us feel in control.

    do you pump gas? go to a store?

    you lose. you are exposed.

    So far I have heard that the severity of the infection is very dependent on the viral charge you get. So if somebody coughes on you and half the virus infects you while the other half is stopped by the mask, it still makes a difference.

    The masks most people are wearing are designed to prevent the people wearing it from spreading virus they may be carrying. That much people could have learnt by reading the leaflet from the manufacturers before all the panic started. Surgical style masks are ok for preventing you for passing the flu to others and for preventing you from breathing dust in certain dust-heavy factories, adn that is it. Manufacturers usually agree that if you want protection against biological agents, you need a respirator instead.

    The issue is that you can't tell the polulation that a respirator is needed, because there won't be a respirator for everybody, and panic will ensue :(

    I personally carry all the gear (face screen, respirator, gloves etc) when I have to get exposed, but I think those are mitigation messures more than sure protections. Most people lack the discipline required to use the gear.
  • From Gamgee@PALANT to DaiTengu on Tue May 26 08:35:00 2020
    DaiTengu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    I'm not easily "stressed out" or whatever, but any time I have
    to go to the grocery store for 30 minutes, I'm completely drained
    by the time I get home.

    I got news for ya... You *ARE* easily stressed out, if that
    little evolution stresses you out. No doubt about that.

    What stresses me out is people crawling up on me while I'm
    patently waiting 6 feet away from someone else to grab something
    from the shelves, or treating grocery shopping like it's a family
    outing. They show up with 4 adults and 8 kids, and they let their germ-infested crotchgoblins run around, stick their fingers in
    their mouth, and then touch everything.

    Granted, that's an extreme example, but fuck. My wife has a
    compromised immune system. My parents are in their late 80s, and
    my dad has type 1 diabetes. If I was to bring home that
    coronavirus, it's entirely possible I'd kill the 3 most important
    people in my life right now.

    So, fuck yeah I'm stressed out. and I'll take every goddamn
    precaution I can, and I'll get angry because someone refuses to
    wear a mask simply because "it looks silly" or "it's
    uncomfortable".

    Wear your fucking mask. It's not for your own good, it's for
    everyone else's.

    Well alrighty then.

    I sure hope the rest of your life isn't as stressful as your
    expeditions to the grocery store!



    ... Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Dr. What on Tue May 26 19:51:00 2020
    Dr. What wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-

    There is also a baffling lack of information on how people could boost their immune systems to avoid getting in the first place. I've heard
    that Vitamin D levels plays a significant role in how severe the
    symptoms are. Now with people locked inside, are they told to keep vitamin D levels up? Keep a healthy diet? I don't bother with a mask.
    I'm not too worried about the virus. At this point, I'd rather take
    my chances with COVID-19 than be locked down.

    If you assume that the Media is just the Left's propaganda ministry,
    it's not baffling at all.

    Some groups out there just want to create fear and any news that allays that fear is dropped and covered up.

    We've known for quite some time now that COVID-19 hits people who are unhealthy. The Vitamin D and healthy diet are just more details to
    that.


    I think it is placing precaution over risk management. I see this professionally as well, as risk management relates to my career. The modern thought is to eliminate any source of risk, no matter what, rather than deal with with risk and manage it. Lockdowns are precautionary, they remove the possibility of getting a virus. How to boost your immune system is management, it reduces risk to someone if they catch the virus.

    The thought is, if people don't ever catch it, then we don't need to worry about anything else. This is the modus operandi of the West now. We simply don't learn how to deal with problems or compromise, because we must all be positive and say we can avoid it completely. Of course, you have to determine what you will do if (when) the virus does spread, but precautionary principle says never let it spread, don't manage, avoid.


    My wife and I aren't too worried either. We caught a mysterious
    illness back in Dec./Jan. and figured it was COVID-19 (we are hoping to get an antibody test so prove that). But we don't wear masks and we
    get out and walk every day, plus we have maintained our healthy diet.

    As I said, I don't see many masks in Melbourne, though I don't get out much so its based on very limited observation. But where I work, with contractors coming in, no masks. Yet our infection rates are low.

    From what I'm seeing in my local area, people are only wearing masks as more of a symbol. They are ignoring the stay-at-home rules. They
    getting out as much as they can. The beaches have many people (parking
    is hard because they closed the parking lots). I think most people realize that this is BS.

    At the start no one was sure, but now that we are finding out that perhaps some of the actions in hindsight may be an overreaction, no one is going to admit that.

    What is interesting is what will happen when there is a second spike.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Mind's Eye - mindseye.ddns.net - Melbourne Australia
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Dumas Walker on Tue May 26 19:52:00 2020
    Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-

    system, a class separate to workers. That many of these self styles intellectuals are quite silly, yes, yes they are. Is this why there is bellachying about "anti-intellectualism" and the rise of "populism?"
    Perhaps
    so.

    Yes, they don't like for their (lack of) intellectualism to be pointed out.
    <GRIN>


    Free Speech allows people to question that authority, which is why is is not seen in good stead with many intellectuals now. There is no way on earth that many of their principles and ideas can survive, if people are able to draw conclusions from their obervations, and express them clearly.



    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Mind's Eye - mindseye.ddns.net - Melbourne Australia
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to MRO on Tue May 26 09:33:58 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Dist
    By: MRO to Moondog on Mon May 25 2020 06:48 pm

    i dont believe masks are effective. i think we have no control over this covid19 and the masks and other dumb shit we do makes us feel in control.

    do you pump gas? go to a store?

    you lose. you are exposed.

    Yeah, but we know it's way worse for you when there's an unimpeded sneeze around you than touching a surface.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Wizzkidd on Tue May 26 09:35:46 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Wizzkidd to The Lizard Master on Mon May 25 2020 09:17 pm

    I used to raise chickens and when I changed the poop and stuff, I'd wear
    Why did you change the poop?

    I'm crazy like that.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Vk3jed on Tue May 26 12:19:53 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Vk3jed to The Lizard Master on Tue May 26 2020 08:03 pm

    Australia's medical advisers advised that masks were unnecessary, and our infection rates are very low. Other factors are obviously more important.

    They said the same thing here too. At the start it was just wash your hands and be wary of touching your face.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Dennisk on Tue May 26 12:25:10 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dennisk to Dr. What on Tue May 26 2020 07:51 pm

    The thought is, if people don't ever catch it, then we don't need to worry about anything else. This is the modus operandi of the West now. We simply don't learn how to deal with problems or compromise, because we must all be positive and say we can avoid it completely. Of course, you have to determine what you will do if (when) the virus does spread, but precautionary principle says never let it spread, don't manage, avoid.

    I never heard that once in America. It was all about flattening the curve to give us some time to figure out what to do. Basically risk management, not let's shut down so no one gets it. I didn't hear one person even thinking that.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Tue May 26 12:43:00 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Tue May 26 2020 08:09 pm

    On 05-25-20 11:18, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Treasurer and membership roles are the positions we see the most burnout. Since we've had some older board members step down, we have

    Yes, I can understand that fully. They are busy positions.

    been able to utilize more technology to streamline our processes.
    Since I've been a member, we rose from 260 member 20 years ago to 530. At one time we considered capping our membership at 300, and now we figure 600 is where we'd want to rop off at. It's become more than just finding eager people to accept the positions but also they need skills or abiliites they can bring to the board.

    Modernisation can certainly help manage the workload in those key roles and allow a board to do more with the same resources or even less. And sometime it does require a changing of the guard to implement major changes like new technology.


    ... The manner in which it is given is worth more than the gift.

    We alos started a side project updating our standard operating procedures. So me items don't fall into what one would assume be part of a job descrition,
    so we're trying to close those holes. Before we voted in directors with technical skills, maintaining the web site or acquiring laptops, copiers or other business related items would go to whoever stepped up to help.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@BBSESINF to Nightfox on Tue May 26 16:40:05 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Dist
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Mon May 25 2020 06:15 pm

    Re: Re: Masks and Social Dist
    By: MRO to Moondog on Mon May 25 2020 06:48 pm

    do you pump gas? go to a store?

    you lose. you are exposed.

    In Oregon where I live, people aren't allowed to pump their own gas by law. Oregon has gas station attendants who will pump gas for you. Recently, duri the COVID lockdown, Oregon decided they'd let people pump their own gas for their car. As far as spreading germs, the idea seemed counter-intuitive to me.. I'd think it would be safer to continue to let gas station attendants pump gas for you so that not everyone is touching the pumps and potentially spreading COVID.


    sounds like a constant state of stupid.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to NIGHTFOX on Tue May 26 15:10:00 2020
    Brazil's president Bolsonaro has been dismissing COVID as no big deal.
    When asked by a reporter about what he thinks about the rising COVID death toll
    in Brazil, he said "What do you want me to do about it? I'm not the Messiah, I
    don't work miracles."
    https://youtu.be/SQYvA6NjOdo

    You don't like to hear the leader of your country say something like that. However, I am starting to believe he somewhat has a point... (1) there seem
    to be a lot of folks that expect their leader to work miracles, and (2) I
    am personally starting to believe that it will take a miracle worker to get
    us out of this (and has since Day 1).

    To point 2, as I am not certain that anyone can pull off such a miracle, I think we are stuck.


    * SLMR 2.1a * If you believe in telekinesis, please raise my hand.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to DAITENGU on Tue May 26 15:25:00 2020
    I want to yell "Wear a fucking mask!" at every single person who isn't wearing >one that I see in a grocery store. It won't do any good though.

    I wear one, but some people really cannot. If I see one, I try to avoid
    them.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Do not make whisky in private, or water in public.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to ARELOR on Tue May 26 15:29:00 2020
    My theory is that he got elected as a backslash against leftist abuse of identitary politics, theory I have already shared around.

    That is part of what convinced me that I wasn't voting for HRC the last
    time... the folks my age whose politics is "indentity politics" mixed with "socialism light" all seemed to be wanting people to vote for her, so that
    was a good reason not to.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Do ministers do more than lay people?

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to ARELOR on Tue May 26 15:34:00 2020
    The masks most people are wearing are designed to prevent the people wearing i
    from spreading virus they may be carrying. That much people could have learnt

    That is what our local politicians are telling us. If there are two people
    and both of you are wearing one, you are safer than if one or neither of
    you are wearing one.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Beer: So much more than a breakfast drink.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Nightfox@DIGDIST to Dumas Walker on Tue May 26 19:57:56 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dumas Walker to NIGHTFOX on Tue May 26 2020 03:10 pm

    Brazil's president Bolsonaro has been dismissing COVID as no big deal.
    When asked by a reporter about what he thinks about the rising COVID
    death toll in Brazil, he said "What do you want me to do about it? I'm
    not the Messiah, I don't work miracles."
    https://youtu.be/SQYvA6NjOdo

    You don't like to hear the leader of your country say something like that. However, I am starting to believe he somewhat has a point... (1) there seem to be a lot of folks that expect their leader to work miracles, and (2) I am personally starting to believe that it will take a miracle worker to get us out of this (and has since Day 1).

    To point 2, as I am not certain that anyone can pull off such a miracle, I think we are stuck.

    Yeah, though I don't think anyone is expecting a leader of a country to pull off a miracle. At least they could do what they can to try to minimize risk and minimize spread of a pandemic. But then there are people who think COVID-19 isn't as bad as they say it is, and they think the goveronment is trying to control us, and probably won't follow directions. So, it seems like a bad situation either way.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Vk3jed on Wed May 27 18:32:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 05-25-20 19:39, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I do remember that in the book. Another option is nomination. If
    someone gets enough nominations, they go in the draw. You would
    probably need a combination of draftees and professionals, and maybe it wouldn't work at all. But either way, I think being governed by career politicians has proven to be a failure.

    I think something has to change. As you point out, career politicians haven't always served us well. :/

    Well, as George Carlin said, the reason that politicians stink, is because we stink. They come from us. Perhaps this is the best we can do.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Mind's Eye - mindseye.ddns.net - Melbourne Australia
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to The Lizard Master on Wed May 27 18:39:00 2020
    The Lizard Master wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dennisk to Dr. What on Tue May 26 2020 07:51 pm

    The thought is, if people don't ever catch it, then we don't need to worry about anything else. This is the modus operandi of the West now. We simply don't learn how to deal with problems or compromise, because we must all be positive and say we can avoid it completely. Of course, you have to determine what you will do if (when) the virus does spread, but precautionary principle says never let it spread, don't manage, avoid.

    I never heard that once in America. It was all about flattening the curve to give us some time to figure out what to do. Basically risk management, not let's shut down so no one gets it. I didn't hear one person even thinking that.

    I've heard it expressed here. We knew that there would be an on-again/off-again cadence to restrictions, that we would ease restrictions, the virus would come back, restrictions back on, it would abate and so on. I hear people now saying that we run a risk of a resurgence. The resurgence was going to happen, it isn't something we can avoid. Flattening the curve was to prevent an overload of the health system, but in Australia, we are far, far from that, yet nevertheless rhetoric is about avoiding cases.

    I see this professionally, where the default mode of operation when an issue occurs is to immediately escalate to the highest level, regardless of the cost/benefit ratio.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Mind's Eye - mindseye.ddns.net - Melbourne Australia
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to The Lizard Master on Wed May 27 20:15:00 2020
    On 05-26-20 12:19, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    @VIA: VERT/NITEEYES
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Vk3jed to The Lizard Master on Tue May 26 2020 08:03 pm

    Australia's medical advisers advised that masks were unnecessary, and our infection rates are very low. Other factors are obviously more important.

    They said the same thing here too. At the start it was just wash your hands and be wary of touching your face.

    Well, something's working over here.


    ... "...death awaits you all with big and nasty pointy teeth."
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Moondog on Wed May 27 20:16:00 2020
    On 05-26-20 12:43, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    We alos started a side project updating our standard operating
    procedures. So me items don't fall into what one would assume be part
    of a job descrition, so we're trying to close those holes. Before we voted in directors with technical skills, maintaining the web site or acquiring laptops, copiers or other business related items would go to whoever stepped up to help.

    Sounds like they have it all in hand. :)


    ... Being normal isn't one of my strengths...
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Dennisk on Wed May 27 20:21:00 2020
    On 05-27-20 18:32, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Well, as George Carlin said, the reason that politicians stink, is
    because we stink. They come from us. Perhaps this is the best we can
    do.

    Well there is a saying that the people get the government they deserve.


    ... Behind every great man is an amazed mother-in-law!
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Dennisk on Wed May 27 08:35:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I think it is placing precaution over risk management. I see this professionally as well, as risk management relates to my career. The modern thought is to eliminate any source of risk, no matter what,
    rather than deal with with risk and manage it. Lockdowns are precautionary, they remove the possibility of getting a virus. How to boost your immune system is management, it reduces risk to someone if
    they catch the virus.

    There are several things here in the U.S.

    1. A growing number of people who want someone else to take care of them (i.e. tell them what to do, what's best for them, etc.) and they are quite willing to make that the gov't.

    2. A growing number of people in gov't who want that power to tell people how to live their lives.

    3. The schools are failing. They are failing to educate. They are failing to teach critical thinking. They are failing to teach people how to actually think for themselves.

    4. A media (not journalists or news) that is more interested in eyeballs than truth and who are run by the power hungry elitists.

    So you have people who want to be in control, who can't ever be seen as weak on anything. They don't want management. They want control. The Media feeds that by broadcasting only negative information - which puts people (who are already poor thinkers) in a panic state which makes them think even less. And that leads to the desire to "eliminate" risk.

    Most people know that elimination of risk is not possible. But we don't control the megaphones of society (i.e. schools, media), so that message is just noise behind the propaganda.

    At the start no one was sure, but now that we are finding out that
    perhaps some of the actions in hindsight may be an overreaction, no one
    is going to admit that.

    And that's part of the problem. You're right that, at first, we didn't know and overreacted (in hindsight). As new information came in, we should have adjusted our policies. But...

    1. The elitists can't do that because changing their decision will make them seem less of an expert. So they must double down on their bad reaction.
    2. The control freaks don't want to let go of their power - even though it's hurting everyone.
    3. The Media doesn't want the crisis to go away. They don't make money if people aren't watching their content.
    4. All that misinformtion makes the stupid people scared and fan the propaganda (by wearing masks while driving their car, for example).

    What is interesting is what will happen when there is a second spike.

    Based on what we've seen so far, there will be no "second spike". COVID-19 will be just another flu strain come fall.


    ... A girl a day keeps the wife away.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Dumas Walker on Wed May 27 08:39:00 2020
    Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-

    Yes, they don't like for their (lack of) intellectualism to be pointed out.

    Yes, that's one way I've found on Facebook to shut up the insufferable elites: point out how naive they are.


    ... SWF, blonde bombshell, seeks man now. No SYSOPs.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to MRO on Wed May 27 08:48:00 2020
    MRO wrote to Moondog <=-

    i dont believe masks are effective. i think we have no control over
    this covid19 and the masks and other dumb shit we do makes us feel in control.

    do you pump gas? go to a store?

    you lose. you are exposed.

    And that's a good thing for 98% of the population.

    Strong immune systems will keep us from dying when COVID-20 (actually it will probably COVID-2024 when the next election cycle hits 8-) ) when it comes out.


    ... The bigger they are, the harder they hit you.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Arelor on Wed May 27 08:51:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to DaiTengu <=-

    Trump was elected on fearmongering, because the republicans are afraid of th own shadow.

    My theory is that he got elected as a backslash against leftist abuse
    of identitary politics, theory I have already shared around.

    That seems more correct. The Left is more into fearmongering, but then the Left always projects.

    ... Always consider the alternative before making a choice.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to The Lizard Master on Wed May 27 09:02:00 2020
    The Lizard Master wrote to Dennisk <=-

    I never heard that once in America.

    You should listen to our worthless Governor here in Michigan.

    It was all about flattening the
    curve to give us some time to figure out what to do. Basically risk management, not let's shut down so no one gets it. I didn't hear one person even thinking that.

    That's what it started as.

    First: Let's "flatten the curve" so that our hospitals aren't overrun and we can save as many people as possible.

    Second: Well the models were completely off and the curve would have flattened without doing anything. But we don't want to say we made a mistake, so we are "moving the goal posts" and saying that we need to "stop the spread".

    Thirs: Well, it's really not spreading much, but we like the power that we have to control everyone. So we are going to "move the goal posts" again and say that this is all about "keeping people safe".

    And, yes, this is all happening in Michigan and a few other states here in the U.S. now.


    ... I think, therefore I am, I think
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to The Lizard Master on Wed May 27 09:46:00 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: The Lizard Master to Dennisk on Tue May 26 2020 12:25 pm

    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dennisk to Dr. What on Tue May 26 2020 07:51 pm

    The thought is, if people don't ever catch it, then we don't need to worr about anything else. This is the modus operandi of the West now. We sim don't learn how to deal with problems or compromise, because we must all positive and say we can avoid it completely. Of course, you have to determine what you will do if (when) the virus does spread, but precautionary principle says never let it spread, don't manage, avoid.

    I never heard that once in America. It was all about flattening the curve t

    ---TLM

    Same here. Masks and social distancing on top of the quaratine were done to prevent the health care system from being swamped with cases. Flatten the curve, as mentioned.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Vk3jed on Wed May 27 17:49:56 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Vk3jed to The Lizard Master on Wed May 27 2020 08:15 pm

    They said the same thing here too. At the start it was just wash your hands and be wary of touching your face.

    Well, something's working over here.

    That's what they said here vs Italy.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Dr. What on Wed May 27 17:53:02 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dr. What to The Lizard Master on Wed May 27 2020 09:02 am

    I never heard that once in America.

    You should listen to our worthless Governor here in Michigan.

    If your governor said the reason for shutting down was so that no one would get it, sorry for your luck. I hadn't heard that.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Thu May 28 00:42:00 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Wed May 27 2020 08:16 pm

    On 05-26-20 12:43, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    We alos started a side project updating our standard operating procedures. So me items don't fall into what one would assume be part of a job descrition, so we're trying to close those holes. Before we voted in directors with technical skills, maintaining the web site or acquiring laptops, copiers or other business related items would go to whoever stepped up to help.

    Sounds like they have it all in hand. :)


    ... Being normal isn't one of my strengths...
    It's something we have to do. Another part of operating procedures moves the group away from tribal knowledge. Imagine a group or yeam as being a tribe, and one member is good at hunting, another is good at fishing, one knows how
    to tan hides, and another knows how to make fire. If the any tribe membe leavs es, dies, or doesn't pass on their knowledge to their offspring, it will serio usly set the tribe back until someone either comes along to fill the job or someone else puts in the effort to master that skill.

    Same applies to an office or board. The organization may have contracts or special partnerships with vendors, and those relations should not dissolve if
    a board member leaves unless there's a better way to do it.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Dr. What on Thu May 28 00:46:00 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dr. What to Dennisk on Wed May 27 2020 08:35 am

    Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I think it is placing precaution over risk management. I see this professionally as well, as risk management relates to my career. The modern thought is to eliminate any source of risk, no matter what, rather than deal with with risk and manage it. Lockdowns are precautionary, they remove the possibility of getting a virus. How to boost your immune system is management, it reduces risk to someone if they catch the virus.

    There are several things here in the U.S.

    1. A growing number of people who want someone else to take care of them (i. tell them what to do, what's best for them, etc.) and they are quite willing make that the gov't.

    2. A growing number of people in gov't who want that power to tell people ho to live their lives.

    3. The schools are failing. They are failing to educate. They are failing teach critical thinking. They are failing to teach people how to actually think for themselves.

    4. A media (not journalists or news) that is more interested in eyeballs tha truth and who are run by the power hungry elitists.

    So you have people who want to be in control, who can't ever be seen as weak anything. They don't want management. They want control. The Media feeds that by broadcasting only negative information - which puts people (who are already poor thinkers) in a panic state which makes them think even less. A that leads to the desire to "eliminate" risk.

    Most people know that elimination of risk is not possible. But we don't control the megaphones of society (i.e. schools, media), so that message is just noise behind the propaganda.

    At the start no one was sure, but now that we are finding out that perhaps some of the actions in hindsight may be an overreaction, no one is going to admit that.

    And that's part of the problem. You're right that, at first, we didn't know and overreacted (in hindsight). As new information came in, we should have adjusted our policies. But...

    1. The elitists can't do that because changing their decision will make them seem less of an expert. So they must double down on their bad reaction.
    2. The control freaks don't want to let go of their power - even though it's hurting everyone.
    3. The Media doesn't want the crisis to go away. They don't make money if people aren't watching their content.
    4. All that misinformtion makes the stupid people scared and fan the propaga (by wearing masks while driving their car, for example).

    What is interesting is what will happen when there is a second spike.

    Based on what we've seen so far, there will be no "second spike". COVID-19 will be just another flu strain come fall.


    ... A girl a day keeps the wife away.

    I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to The Lizard Master on Thu May 28 19:01:00 2020
    On 05-27-20 17:49, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    @VIA: VERT/NITEEYES
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Vk3jed to The Lizard Master on Wed May 27 2020 08:15 pm

    They said the same thing here too. At the start it was just wash your hands and be wary of touching your face.

    Well, something's working over here.

    That's what they said here vs Italy.

    I'll let the stats speak for themselves

    As of this morning in Australia:

    7139 yoyal xases
    103 deaths
    6566 recovered.

    That's slightly over 4 deaths per million population and less than one death per 70 cases.

    Let's see some comparisons from other countries.



    ... Logic and practical information do not seem to apply here.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Dr. What on Thu May 28 18:35:00 2020
    Dr. What wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I think it is placing precaution over risk management. I see this professionally as well, as risk management relates to my career. The modern thought is to eliminate any source of risk, no matter what,
    rather than deal with with risk and manage it. Lockdowns are precautionary, they remove the possibility of getting a virus. How to boost your immune system is management, it reduces risk to someone if
    they catch the virus.

    There are several things here in the U.S.

    1. A growing number of people who want someone else to take care of
    them (i.e. tell them what to do, what's best for them, etc.) and they
    are quite willing to make that the gov't.

    2. A growing number of people in gov't who want that power to tell
    people how to live their lives.

    3. The schools are failing. They are failing to educate. They are failing to teach critical thinking. They are failing to teach people
    how to actually think for themselves.

    4. A media (not journalists or news) that is more interested in
    eyeballs than truth and who are run by the power hungry elitists.

    So you have people who want to be in control, who can't ever be seen as weak on anything. They don't want management. They want control. The Media feeds that by broadcasting only negative information - which puts people (who are already poor thinkers) in a panic state which makes
    them think even less. And that leads to the desire to "eliminate"
    risk.

    Do you think that part of that desire for control, is a lack of trust in people? I see this at the workplace. Control often comes because someone doesn't trust someone else to make good decisions. They see other human beings not as thinking creatures, but mere tools who have to be micromanaged and given very specific instructions. The education system fits this, as it basically institutionalises people and teaches them how to follow, not create. Take for example the desire for people to create locked down computers or phones, its part control, but also part a lack of trust in the user. Apple/Microsoft don't trust the user to manage their phone or computer, or trust others, so they create walled gardens. It's all very, paternal.

    Most people know that elimination of risk is not possible. But we
    don't control the megaphones of society (i.e. schools, media), so that message is just noise behind the propaganda.

    I have first hand experience with managers who quite literally are just grasping at straws with regards to what to do about COVID-19. The ruling elite most likely don't know what they are doing, and just acting arbitrarily.

    At the start no one was sure, but now that we are finding out that
    perhaps some of the actions in hindsight may be an overreaction, no one
    is going to admit that.

    And that's part of the problem. You're right that, at first, we didn't know and overreacted (in hindsight). As new information came in, we should have adjusted our policies. But...

    1. The elitists can't do that because changing their decision will make them seem less of an expert. So they must double down on their bad reaction. 2. The control freaks don't want to let go of their power -
    even though it's hurting everyone.
    3. The Media doesn't want the crisis to go away. They don't make money
    if people aren't watching their content.
    4. All that misinformtion makes the stupid people scared and fan the propaganda (by wearing masks while driving their car, for example).

    As I mentioned, the response I've seen first hand seems to be a mild panic, ass covering and just taking any kind of grasping-at-straws action. This confuses others, because they can't make heads nor tails of what the actual risk is. The messaging is all confused. So yes, the response of other people will be confused.

    This pandemic has made me lose a lot of whatever little faith I had in our ruling "elite". Elite, they are not.

    What is interesting is what will happen when there is a second spike.

    Based on what we've seen so far, there will be no "second spike".
    COVID-19 will be just another flu strain come fall.

    Flu infections rate rise and fall. Coronavirus will spread more, as will the common cold and flu, because as social restrictions are relaxed. This will mean person to person trasmissions rates will rise above their current, suppressed levels. The question is, whether this will result in more restrictions.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Mind's Eye - mindseye.ddns.net - Melbourne Australia
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Moondog on Thu May 28 20:13:00 2020
    On 05-28-20 00:42, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Same applies to an office or board. The organization may have
    contracts or special partnerships with vendors, and those relations
    should not dissolve if a board member leaves unless there's a better
    way to do it.

    There's another name for that: "Succession planning" - making sure that people and resources are still available in the event of board members resigning or passing away.


    ... I've always been a bit maturer that what I am.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Vk3jed on Thu May 28 14:37:11 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Vk3jed to The Lizard Master on Thu May 28 2020 07:01 pm

    Well, something's working over here.

    That's what they said here vs Italy.

    I'll let the stats speak for themselves

    As of this morning in Australia:

    7139 yoyal xases
    103 deaths
    6566 recovered.

    That's slightly over 4 deaths per million population and less than one death per 70 cases.

    Yeah, it looks great NZ too (I have family in NZ, I know its not the same ha) reported zero cases yesterday I think? I'm just saying our stats looked better than Italy's at first, and Brazil was recently saying the same thing. I'm sure you are more healthy and higer vitamin D per capita too. It's not apples to apples.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Thu May 28 14:18:00 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Thu May 28 2020 08:13 pm

    On 05-28-20 00:42, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Same applies to an office or board. The organization may have contracts or special partnerships with vendors, and those relations should not dissolve if a board member leaves unless there's a better way to do it.

    There's another name for that: "Succession planning" - making sure that peo and resources are still available in the event of board members resigning or passing away.


    ... I've always been a bit maturer that what I am.


    We're also implementing succession planning. The building that we use for a meeting hall is a pole barn that was originally built to house an indoor
    pistol range and archery range. It's an agricultural style building that was retrofitted with a drop ceiling to keep heating less expensive and insualtion rolled above the ceiling tiles. Part of original succession plan was to
    build a new building aside the old building to conduct meetings, training,
    and possibly renting tot he public or for the township to stage election
    voting in, and leave the old building as a dedicated range and storage. Our new strategy is to build a complex with a basement range with an elaborate
    air filtering system, and place the training and meeting complex at ground lev el. The entrance will allow access to either facility, with card readers cont rolling where visitors can go or not go. Our conservation club property has 8 0 acres, and we're only using 1/3 of it.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Tracker1@TRN to Vk3jed on Thu May 28 14:50:28 2020
    On 5/14/2020 7:49 PM, Vk3jed wrote:
    False comparison. We have many more tools to deal with flu - vaccines,
    treatments for those who have the disease. And there's also a degree of >>> natural immunity in the population to the flu. This coronavirus has none of
    those, except perhaps some people may be less susceptible, vut we don't know
    enough.

    20-30k/year die in the US from the flu... we don't lock everything
    down.. and that's with vacines etc. Locking things down won't actually
    save many, because the disease is still spreading.

    You're WAAAAY beyond that in a few months with COVID-19. I've lost track of the casualties over there, but it was something over 80,000 last time I heard,
    but that was days ago.

    We're attributing about 110k so far in the US, but reports are somewhat unreliable as some places are reporting anyone with COVID markers as a
    covid death even if they were shot. Which is still well within bounds
    of a bad flu year.

    There's not a single reason the same rules for grocery stores and food
    processors can't be followed for most jobs. Unless you're advocating
    to also lock down the grocery stores and fast food drive throughs as
    well?

    Whatever those rules are (multiple jurisdictions between us).

    One does have to ask why Australia only has 100 deaths (4 per million population) and the USA has a figure closer to 100,000 (at least 70 or 80 times
    Australia on a per head basis).

    Well, travel to/from origin regions is part of the start of the
    infection rate, population density is another large factor, and another
    still is just luck and risk. Most of those infected don't see death.
    Those that are dying are generally those with the greatest health risks already, and the US in general is probably less healthy, with less sun exposure than the average Australian this time of year, which is
    Winter/spring in the USA vs Fall/Winter in au. Not to mention higher temperatures tends to lower risk dramatically on its' own.

    Even given all of that, there's still no significant reason to do more
    than necessary to slow the spread to what emergency services can handle,
    as over the course of 18 months, roughly the same number of people
    overall will be infected before there is a vaccine, and getting heard
    immunity faster will provide more prevention for the broader communities.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Tracker1@TRN to Dumas Walker on Thu May 28 14:54:24 2020
    On 5/15/2020 8:33 AM, Dumas Walker wrote:
    I'm pretty certain the DNC will have a different nomination, likely
    Bloomberg.

    I didn't think he did well enough in the primaries he was in to do well otherwise. He didn't do too well in the debates, IIRC, either.

    Primary voters tend to be the most extreme in a given party, not the
    greater population. Combined with the DNC being one of the most corrupt organizations on the planet, it wouldn't surprise me.

    Bloomberg would have a greater chance of actually winning... But who knows.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Tracker1@TRN to Nightfox on Thu May 28 15:00:50 2020
    On 5/21/2020 10:52 AM, Nightfox wrote:
    Stalin and Mao led their countries for fairly long terms. The
    good thing about our 4-year 2-term limits in the US is that we
    have a chance to change our president within a few years if we
    don't like where our current president is leading the country.

    Unfortunately, both parties keep giving the government and president
    more and more power over time. This encroachment rarely recedes short
    of civil war. Even then, civil war often leads to a worse totalitarian government.

    It would be best for all involed if the Federal government in the US
    were only as big as necessary to ensure essential infrastructure and
    common enforcement. Abuse of power wouldn't be a problem if they weren't
    given that power in the first place.

    And to head off any comments about corporate power, the power that corporations have is granted by the government, not in spite of it.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Tracker1@TRN to Dennisk on Thu May 28 15:09:25 2020
    On 5/21/2020 5:02 PM, Dennisk wrote:

    Or they just didn't learn it. The Cold War ended before I reached puberty, but
    I do remember worry about nuclear war and about the Soviet Union. But to be honest, very little of this was covered. I had to ask my mum what Communism was, and the answer I got was "where the government owns everything" which left
    me wondering what the deal was. History class tended to gloss over it. It was
    just a "cold war", and the Soviet Union was some big scary thing that scared people and that was it. Why they killed people, the motivation for control, their "political correctness", nada.

    As for Mao, even less. I guess there is no politcal cache in it.

    If you ever get the chance, talk to an ex-patriated russian or chinese
    (or taiwanese) person... They can be much more informative.

    It's also worth noting there isn't a single faction of socialism or communism... in fact, in the early part of the 1900's there were three
    major socialist factions killing eachother in Russia. Not to mention
    that Fascism is in fact another weird type of socialism.

    There is often still currency in Socialist societies and some have been managed better than others. China, despite human abuses and a complete disrespect for individual sovereign, has been better managed than any of
    the others. Russia by contrast, horribly managed. Both have killed
    tends of millions of their own countrymen either by starvation and/or by removing dissent.

    Capitalism has never approached the level of shear death for contrarian political views. Communist countries are usually lead into poverty and bancruptcy as a whole. China only thrives because of the foreign
    investment and capitalism they have allowed. And their foreign
    negotiations are increadibly thoughtful, to the detriment of the rest of
    the world.

    Communism just doesn't work at scale, and not without non-communism to
    trade with.

    Unfortunately, the educational system is indoctrinated by people that
    are only the woke of the woke and support such regigmes.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Tracker1@TRN to Dennisk on Thu May 28 15:12:57 2020
    On 5/21/2020 4:04 AM, Dennisk wrote:

    I'm glad to see "globalism" dying. I really am. We may start to move back towards a social model which serves communities again, instead of a wannbe-elite drunk on the idea of being "global".

    I'm mostly okay with open trade with countries that have reciprocal open
    trade and similar workplace environments (safety, no child labor, limits
    on hours per week).

    What surprises me more is that we as a culture (USA) would allow more
    than half of our critical infrastructure, communications and medications
    to be manufactured overseas at all, just from a security perspective.
    And that there hasn't been legislation to require as much moving forward.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Tracker1@TRN to HusTler on Thu May 28 15:15:29 2020
    On 5/22/2020 5:23 AM, HusTler wrote:

    Do yourself a favor and research the "Cuban Missle Crisis" and
    then tell us how you feel about communism. What would have happened
    if those missles became ready to launch?

    Ironically, and less reported is it was a response to the US placing
    missiles roughly as close in north-eastern europe.

    As much as I don't like communism/socialism or modern woke lefty
    politics, there's a counter-balance to a lot of the cold war era. The
    current situation with China/Taiwan is much more concerning to me right now.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Tracker1@TRN to MRO on Thu May 28 15:16:49 2020
    On 5/22/2020 2:45 PM, MRO wrote:

    i wish recycling wasnt mandatory here. people that were out of work could go pickup cans and make decent money. now that things are mandatory, prices dropped. it's not worth it to recycle for money.

    before this happened they could make 10 usd in today's money for a bag of uncrushed cans.

    Recycling is largely a jobs program.. not only that, but most recycling
    can't actually be recycled and is a problem of sorting... may as well
    just use a single bin and sort it all together.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to DR. WHAT on Thu May 28 14:26:00 2020
    Yes, they don't like for their (lack of) intellectualism to be pointed out.

    Yes, that's one way I've found on Facebook to shut up the insufferable elites:
    point out how naive they are.

    I have found that is a good way to get them to really blow up and point out
    how "stupid and uneducated" that I am, especially the ones that have a
    lower education level than I do (like took 7-8 years to finish high school).


    * SLMR 2.1a * White dwarf seeks red giant for binary relationship

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Digital Man to MRO on Thu May 28 18:06:42 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Fri May 22 2020 08:36 pm

    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Fri May 22 2020 05:40 pm


    before this happened they could make 10 usd in today's money for a bag uncrushed cans.

    Really? Cans & bottles used to have a 5 cent deposit in Oregon, and last ye they doubled it to 10 cents.


    it just doesnt pay well anymore. people picked themselves out of poverty and ran their own businesses by recycling.

    in the 90s it was good extra cash.

    i can get all kinds of metals from work for and take them to scrap them. it's not even worth the gas money and effort.

    I collected all the bottles and cans that my family (of 5) generated over 2 years. It was about 200lbs worth and netted me about $250 at the recycle yard after 2 trips with a van full of bags. Not worth the hassle at all. We don't bother now. :-(

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #16:
    David St. Hubbins: I believe virtually everything I read...
    Norco, CA WX: 77.1°F, 59.0% humidity, 7 mph ENE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
  • From MRO@BBSESINF to Tracker1 on Thu May 28 22:35:22 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Tracker1 to Dumas Walker on Thu May 28 2020 02:54 pm

    On 5/15/2020 8:33 AM, Dumas Walker wrote:
    I'm pretty certain the DNC will have a different nomination, likely
    Bloomberg.

    I didn't think he did well enough in the primaries he was in to do well otherwise. He didn't do too well in the debates, IIRC, either.

    Primary voters tend to be the most extreme in a given party, not the greater population. Combined with the DNC being one of the most corrupt organizations on the planet, it wouldn't surprise me.

    Bloomberg would have a greater chance of actually winning... But who knows.


    seriously, what is up with biden. what the hell.

    anyways. still have not got my bloomberg 'you're fired' matches.
    he spams me all the time, though.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Tracker1 on Fri May 29 18:31:00 2020
    Tracker1 wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 5/21/2020 5:02 PM, Dennisk wrote:

    Or they just didn't learn it. The Cold War ended before I reached puberty,
    bu
    t
    I do remember worry about nuclear war and about the Soviet Union. But to be honest, very little of this was covered. I had to ask my mum what Communism was, and the answer I got was "where the government owns everything" which
    lef
    t
    me wondering what the deal was. History class tended to gloss over it. It
    wa
    s
    just a "cold war", and the Soviet Union was some big scary thing that scared people and that was it. Why they killed people, the motivation for control, their "political correctness", nada.

    As for Mao, even less. I guess there is no politcal cache in it.

    If you ever get the chance, talk to an ex-patriated russian or chinese
    (or taiwanese) person... They can be much more informative.

    I have spoken to a few people who did live in Communist countries. One of whom regaled me with a story of how he had to evade guard towers with machine guns to cross the border. I have been to Eastern Europe, and indeed some are nostalgic for Communism. But there are Brits who feel nostalgic about the Blitz too.

    It's also worth noting there isn't a single faction of socialism or communism... in fact, in the early part of the 1900's there were three major socialist factions killing eachother in Russia. Not to mention
    that Fascism is in fact another weird type of socialism.

    Fascism isn't socialism, thought some have argued that it is a type of socialism. It could be argued that the Soviet Union wasn't really Socialist either. In practice though, Fascist Italy and Nationalist Socialist Germany were NOT Socialist. The workers did not own the means of production.

    Hitler spoke very much like a Marxist, that is true. But in practice, Nationalist Socialist Germany, it didn't move towards Socialism.

    There is often still currency in Socialist societies and some have been managed better than others. China, despite human abuses and a complete disrespect for individual sovereign, has been better managed than any
    of the others. Russia by contrast, horribly managed. Both have killed tends of millions of their own countrymen either by starvation and/or
    by removing dissent.

    "despite human abuses and complete disrespect for individual sovreign". huh? That pretty much is a deal breaker for me. China is BADLY managed if people are being abused, there are no individual rights, and minority groups are imprisoned. Period. China has evolved less than Russia I think. However, it is not a threat solely because it is Communist, it is a threat because it is a rising power.

    Capitalism has never approached the level of shear death for contrarian political views. Communist countries are usually lead into poverty and bancruptcy as a whole. China only thrives because of the foreign investment and capitalism they have allowed. And their foreign negotiations are increadibly thoughtful, to the detriment of the rest
    of the world.

    Communism just doesn't work at scale, and not without non-communism to trade with.

    Unfortunately, the educational system is indoctrinated by people that
    are only the woke of the woke and support such regigmes.

    I am a sort of "Socialist", but "Socialism" today is equated to Marxism. To be a Socialist is considered to be a Marxist, and therein lies the problem. There are alternatives to Capitalism that are not Marxist Socialism. We are stuck with this belief that it is one or the other, and as a result, are unable to move on deep seated economic problems. We have to move away from the current Capitalist/Neo-Liberal model, but as long as Marxism acts as an effective boogeyman, we are going to stagnate idelogically, and decline.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Mind's Eye - mindseye.ddns.net - Melbourne Australia
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Tracker1 on Fri May 29 18:34:00 2020
    Tracker1 wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 5/21/2020 4:04 AM, Dennisk wrote:

    I'm glad to see "globalism" dying. I really am. We may start to move back towards a social model which serves communities again, instead of a wannbe-elite drunk on the idea of being "global".

    I'm mostly okay with open trade with countries that have reciprocal
    open trade and similar workplace environments (safety, no child labor, limits on hours per week).

    What surprises me more is that we as a culture (USA) would allow more
    than half of our critical infrastructure, communications and
    medications to be manufactured overseas at all, just from a security perspective. And that there hasn't been legislation to require as much moving forward.

    I am fine with trade too, but "globalism" is not just about trade. Globalism is the merging of economic and political power, and the disenfranchisement of nations, of people. Companies that seek to go "global" put in policies and practices which undermine the countries they operate in. The managerial elite, drunk on the idea of "global", will put in place policies which effectively weaken communities. I've seen this first hand, and its ugly, ugly.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Mind's Eye - mindseye.ddns.net - Melbourne Australia
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to The Lizard Master on Fri May 29 19:05:00 2020
    On 05-28-20 14:37, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Yeah, it looks great NZ too (I have family in NZ, I know its not the

    NZ is actually slightly better, from memory.

    same ha) reported zero cases yesterday I think? I'm just saying our stats looked better than Italy's at first, and Brazil was recently
    saying the same thing. I'm sure you are more healthy and higer vitamin
    D per capita too. It's not apples to apples.

    Sure, though it's not just the stats but the overall shape of the curve.


    ... What did the cannibal call two hunters in a jeep? Meals on wheels!
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Moondog on Fri May 29 19:10:00 2020
    On 05-28-20 14:18, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    We're also implementing succession planning. The building that we use
    for a meeting hall is a pole barn that was originally built to house an

    Hmm, succession planning to me is about people (succession...), but yeah you're definitely making good plans for the future thee.


    ... Internal Error: The system has been taken over by sheep at line 19960
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Tracker1 on Fri May 29 19:36:00 2020
    On 05-28-20 14:50, Tracker1 wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    We're attributing about 110k so far in the US, but reports are somewhat unreliable as some places are reporting anyone with COVID markers as a covid death even if they were shot. Which is still well within bounds
    of a bad flu year.

    So what is a b

    Well, travel to/from origin regions is part of the start of the
    infection rate, population density is another large factor, and another

    There's a lot of travel here from China as well in a normal year - between students and tourists, as well as business interests, a lot of Chinese do indeed come here. However, timing was in our favour - the red flag went up, just before Chinese students either arrived from China or returned from visiting family over Christmas, prior to the start of the academic year. So luck and prompt government action were definitely ywo factors that helped.

    As for the actual US rate, what's the proportion of "dodgy" death reports?

    still is just luck and risk. Most of those infected don't see death.

    Going by figures, around 1 in 16 in the US. I like Aussie odds better. :)

    Those that are dying are generally those with the greatest health risks already, and the US in general is probably less healthy, with less sun exposure than the average Australian this time of year, which is Winter/spring in the USA vs Fall/Winter in au. Not to mention higher temperatures tends to lower risk dramatically on its' own.

    Well, we're approaching flu season here.

    Even given all of that, there's still no significant reason to do more than necessary to slow the spread to what emergency services can
    handle, as over the course of 18 months, roughly the same number of
    people overall will be infected before there is a vaccine, and getting heard immunity faster will provide more prevention for the broader communities.

    I don't know, there's still too many unknowns about this virus. I've heard of a case where the virus appeared to lie dormant for around 10 weeks, before becoming active.

    And there's also the degree of lasting lung damage on a number of survivors.


    ... It's okay to stay true to your roots as long as you grow your own leaves. --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From DaiTengu@ENSEMBLE to Dumas Walker on Fri May 29 09:22:16 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dumas Walker to DAITENGU on Tue May 26 2020 03:25 pm

    I want to yell "Wear a fucking mask!" at every single person who isn't
    wearing one that I see in a grocery store. It won't do any good though.

    I wear one, but some people really cannot. If I see one, I try to avoid them.

    Oh yeah, I get that. My wife has respratory issues that make it hard to wear a mask for very long, but she still does it, because she's a responsible human.

    My comment above was in reference to the fact that I see about 75% of people NOT wearing masks in my area.

    DaiTengu

    ... Mathematicians have to PROVE they can do it

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@ENSEMBLE to Dr. What on Fri May 29 09:59:10 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dr. What to Arelor on Wed May 27 2020 08:51 am

    That seems more correct. The Left is more into fearmongering, but then the Left always projects.

    You're literally projecting here. You're projecting fearmongering and projecting projecting. This is the most meta shit I've seen this week.


    "Muslims are coming to kill us and/or impose sharia law on America"
    "Mexicans are coming to take our jobs!"
    "They want to take away all our guns!"
    "Countless innocent American lives have been stolen because our politicians have failed in their duty to secure our borders!"
    "Socialism will destroy our country!"


    Trump was literally elected by scaring the shit out of his conservative base.

    DaiTengu

    ... Rugby is played by men with odd-shaped balls!!

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@ENSEMBLE to Digital Man on Fri May 29 10:05:48 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Thu May 28 2020 06:06 pm

    I collected all the bottles and cans that my family (of 5) generated over 2 years. It was about 200lbs worth and netted me about $250 at the recycle yard after 2 trips with a van full of bags. Not worth the hassle at all. We don't bother now. :-(

    Same here. Our city has a recycling program and it's just way less of a hassle to toss them in the recycling bin rather than store them, deal with leaking bags, haul them somewhere and then have to deal with someone who clearly hates their job, while they weigh them and hand you $15

    DaiTengu

    ... I must follow them. I am their leader.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Moondog on Fri May 29 10:14:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.

    And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, but the vast majority don't get it.


    ... Veni, vedi, VCR: I came, I saw, I dubbed.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Dennisk on Fri May 29 10:34:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Do you think that part of that desire for control, is a lack of trust
    in people? I see this at the workplace.

    You bring up a good point here. I've seen the same thing in the places that I've worked at.

    From what I've seen that lack of trust is based on two fallacies
    1. the boss is the smartest person in the room
    2. if you aren't doing it the way the boss thinks it should be done, then you are doing it wrong.

    In some cases, because of those fallacies, the worker does it exactly the way the boss wants - which, of course, doesn't work and causes the boss to not trust that person.

    That said, the previous company I worked for decided to "outsource" a bunch of their IT to contractors from India and the company's motto was "Why pay more?", so you can guess that we didn't get the best contractors.

    The contractors made mistake after mistake. But instead of getting rid of the incompetants, the company doubled down on their bad decision and just kept putting useless processes around getting code changes pushed into production.

    The education
    system fits this, as it basically institutionalises people and teaches them how to follow, not create.

    I've often remarked how our school systems seem to want to create factory workers instead of people who can think for themselves.

    Take for example the desire for people
    to create locked down computers or phones, its part control, but also
    part a lack of trust in the user. Apple/Microsoft don't trust the user
    to manage their phone or computer, or trust others, so they create
    walled gardens. It's all very, paternal.

    I have to disagree with the "lack of trust". The walled gardens are purely a business decision to maximize profits. Apple has been doing that for a long, long time. They **say** it's about "protecting the user", but if that was the case, they would have a way for for us knowledgeable people to turn that protection off, if we choose.

    I have first hand experience with managers who quite literally are just grasping at straws with regards to what to do about COVID-19. The
    ruling elite most likely don't know what they are doing, and just
    acting arbitrarily.

    Which is what happening here in Michigan. Our Tyrant... er.. Governor is making decisions based on bad models that have neen disproven and, even then, the decisions have no rational thought behind them at all.

    Flu infections rate rise and fall. Coronavirus will spread more, as
    will the common cold and flu, because as social restrictions are
    relaxed. This will mean person to person trasmissions rates will rise above their current, suppressed levels. The question is, whether this will result in more restrictions.

    It will if the control freaks can spin the numbers and panic people more.

    I think we are fighting 2 battles right now:
    1. Against the people who want to seize power and control us.
    2. Misinformation that causes people to be afraid - which reduces their ability to think clearly (i.e. they are more apt to let the control freaks have more power).


    ... Bank Rule: To get a loan, first prove you don't need it.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Vk3jed on Fri May 29 10:48:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to The Lizard Master <=-

    As of this morning in Australia:

    7139 yoyal xases
    103 deaths
    6566 recovered.

    That's slightly over 4 deaths per million population and less than one death per 70 cases.

    Let's see some comparisons from other countries.

    The problem with stats is that they are so easily subverted.

    Here in the U.S., the death stats are simply wrong. We have people in hospitals that are being told to list a death as COVID-19 even if it had nothing to do with the death. So if a person was in a car accident and died in the hospital from those injuries, if they tested positive for COVID-19, then it was a COVID-19 death.

    If you look at the stats, you'll see that we've pretty much eliminated things like heart disease (because those numbers dropped heavily) while COVID-19 numbers went up. That's pretty fishy to me.

    Others have done a more in depth analysis of the numbers and are now saying that our actualy COVID-19 death numbers are actually closer to 50% what is being reported.

    As far as COVID-19 cases go, most people had it, didn't show symptoms, never got tested and recovered. Those numbers are rarely added to the cases number. Based on the antibody tests so far, the case numbers are off by a factor of 50-85 (i.e. 50 to 85 TIMES the reported numbers).

    So, for compairson, what did Australia count? The real numbers, or the same fake numbers that other countries did?


    ... War never decides who is right, only who is left.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From HusTler@HAVENS to Moondog on Fri May 29 08:34:26 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Moondog to Dr. What on Thu May 28 2020 12:46 am

    I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.

    One the works anyway. :-(

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Dr. What on Fri May 29 12:38:50 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dr. What to Moondog on Fri May 29 2020 10:14 am

    I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.

    And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, but the vast majority don't get it.

    I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that ended up in the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu at the same time. He probably would have been okay with just one or the other, ended up on a vent and almost died.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From HusTler@HAVENS to Dr. What on Fri May 29 16:19:06 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dr. What to Dennisk on Fri May 29 2020 10:34 am

    Control is an illusion. Nobody has control over anyone or anything in this world. We all could be gone (Dead) tomorrow and there's not a damn thing we can do about. Sure you may think you have control but the the reality is you don't.

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23








    ... Failure is a measurement that depends on the standard applied.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Arelor to Dennisk on Fri May 29 14:00:41 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Tracker1 on Fri May 29 2020 06:31 pm

    Fascism isn't socialism, thought some have argued that it is a type of socialism. It could be argued that the Soviet Union wasn't really Socialist either. In practice though, Fascist Italy and Nationalist Socialist Germany were NOT Socialist. The workers did not own the means of production.

    I beg to differ.

    Speaking of a case I know because it is close, if you check Spanish Fascist propaganda from both the present and the past, you can tell it is extremely socialistic.

    The whole point for them is that the means of production are to be controled by Unions, and that strategic services belong to the country, which means they belong to people. Because the country is the people.

    What happened in practice is that Union leaders were appointed by General Francisco Franco and friends but the whole idea was that strategic services belonged to the people through Unions and government. If you check the whole rethoric it is easy to see Fascism worked a lot like State Communism, but instead of class struggle, their based their propaganda on "national struggle" (our people against the rest of the world).

    On the other hand, in my opinion, economic systems built around the concept of wealth distribution have socialist tendencies at the very least. This includes National _Socialism_. In fact the Nazi party had internal struggles with dead people over the application of socialist policies.
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Tracker1 on Fri May 29 14:53:00 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Tracker1 to MRO on Thu May 28 2020 03:16 pm

    On 5/22/2020 2:45 PM, MRO wrote:

    i wish recycling wasnt mandatory here. people that were out of work could pickup cans and make decent money. now that things are mandatory, prices dropped. it's not worth it to recycle for money.

    before this happened they could make 10 usd in today's money for a bag of uncrushed cans.

    Recycling is largely a jobs program.. not only that, but most recycling can't actually be recycled and is a problem of sorting... may as well
    just use a single bin and sort it all together.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    Our society and manufacturing isn't geared toward recycling. Materials such
    as aluminum and glass are easily melted back down, however the plastics we
    use are designed with properties that help them serve their purpose with no pl ans for recovery.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Fri May 29 15:19:00 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Fri May 29 2020 07:10 pm

    On 05-28-20 14:18, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    We're also implementing succession planning. The building that we use for a meeting hall is a pole barn that was originally built to house an

    Hmm, succession planning to me is about people (succession...), but yeah you definitely making good plans for the future thee.


    ... Internal Error: The system has been taken over by sheep at line 19960

    Having a focus or long term plan makes using the clubs resources wisely. In the past buildings owuld've been built and earth moved during one tour of dire ctors, then torn down and replaced with something else five or six years
    later. Our current president is a building inspector for the state, and knows volumes about zoning and permits, as well as the obvious knowledge about bring ing things up to code or getting rid of them. Decades ago the club used to host dinners and the clubhouse had a kitchen area with an oven and sink and serving window. By eliminating the kitchen and replacing it with catering serving area, our insurance rate dropped since we no longer had a stove, plus this also affected our electric bill. Commercial buildings are billed at a ra te based on their peak operating day versus regular meter readings. Any food that needed to be baked or roasted was made offsite and brought in. We also set policy for what temperature the thermostat would be set at during off hours, and eliminated the use of electric baseboard heaters in the restrooms.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Gamgee@PALANT to DaiTengu on Fri May 29 15:26:00 2020
    DaiTengu wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Trump was literally elected by scaring the shit out of his
    conservative base.

    Actually he was elected because the Dimocrats didn't have an
    electable candidate.

    They still don't, and that's why he'll be re-elected.



    ... Never give up ... never surrender.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to DAITENGU on Fri May 29 14:31:00 2020
    My comment above was in reference to the fact that I see about 75% of people NO
    wearing masks in my area.

    That is a lot. The only time I have been in a business since they said we should wear masks (and there were actually masks to be found), everyone in
    the store (4 patrons, 2 workers) had on a mask.

    At work, if we go into the building, we are supposed to keep one on at all times.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Blesss usss and splassh us, taglinesss for my preciousss

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Dr. What on Fri May 29 21:28:00 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dr. What to Moondog on Fri May 29 2020 10:14 am

    Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.

    And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, but th vast majority don't get it.


    ... Veni, vedi, VCR: I came, I saw, I dubbed.

    Back in 2010 the swine flu kicked my ass. I wasn't quite at the point to be admittied in a hospital, but it made me more aware of how vulnerable the older
    folks are. When the vaccine does appear, people will line up, but I can imagine within 2-3 years turnout won't be much more than what it is now for
    the normal flu shots.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Dr. What on Sat May 30 12:49:00 2020
    Dr. What wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Do you think that part of that desire for control, is a lack of trust
    in people? I see this at the workplace.

    You bring up a good point here. I've seen the same thing in the places that I've worked at.

    From what I've seen that lack of trust is based on two fallacies
    1. the boss is the smartest person in the room
    2. if you aren't doing it the way the boss thinks it should be done,
    then you are doing it wrong.

    In some cases, because of those fallacies, the worker does it exactly
    the way the boss wants - which, of course, doesn't work and causes the boss to not trust that person.

    I see this a lot in my workplace, which will remain nameless for now. The first instinct is to put rules and controls, many of which are arbitrary. I've seen people get pinged for having too many pens on their desk, or a notebook. But people don't feel they can speak against it, because the manager is supposed to be the one who knows what they are doing. It leads to people questioning everything our department does.

    That said, the previous company I worked for decided to "outsource" a bunch of their IT to contractors from India and the company's motto was "Why pay more?", so you can guess that we didn't get the best
    contractors.

    The contractors made mistake after mistake. But instead of getting rid
    of the incompetants, the company doubled down on their bad decision and just kept putting useless processes around getting code changes pushed into production.

    I have had similar experiences just now with my ISP. Dealing with one company which is a retailer for infrastructure provided by another. There was little communication between the two, technicians were coming for reasons I didn't know (and the ISP didn't know!). Any attempt to explain to them what I knew went nowhere, because it deviated from the script. Even just to explain that someone would be home, but just not between say 8:30-8:50, couldn't do it. You could just smell the rigid, proceduralised "customer care" system that management put in. Things worked much better before this ISP was bought over, and had Australian workers who would engage with you and knew what they were doing.

    Now you are just dealing with someone who's only function is to execute a procedure.

    The education
    system fits this, as it basically institutionalises people and teaches them how to follow, not create.

    I've often remarked how our school systems seem to want to create
    factory workers instead of people who can think for themselves.

    The purpose of the school system is to create drones. Thats why it is the way it is. Why is it that so many influential people where drop outs, or renegades in schools, or didn't go, or got non-school education? These people had to unlearn what they learned in school. The most intellectually obnoxious people I know, are "well educated" and only learned what they know from institutions.

    School trains people for a mode of life where what we do, is belong to some institution, where we follow that institutions practices and perform work. I would say that people I work with, especially the 'professionals', act more as if they are at school, than at a workplace where stuff needs to get done.

    Take for example the desire for people
    to create locked down computers or phones, its part control, but also
    part a lack of trust in the user. Apple/Microsoft don't trust the user
    to manage their phone or computer, or trust others, so they create
    walled gardens. It's all very, paternal.

    I have to disagree with the "lack of trust". The walled gardens are purely a business decision to maximize profits. Apple has been doing
    that for a long, long time. They **say** it's about "protecting the user", but if that was the case, they would have a way for for us knowledgeable people to turn that protection off, if we choose.

    No doubt that lock-in is a significant motive, but I think that wanting to press a vision onto consumers is also a motive. We have idealists in Silicon Valley, they see a particular future, a particular way or working with machines that they think should happen, and they want to people to go along.

    The same thing happens with Linux too. GNOME 3 Desktop being a good example. They had a vision, and just forced it on users. That software is free, so profit can't be the motive there.

    I have first hand experience with managers who quite literally are just grasping at straws with regards to what to do about COVID-19. The
    ruling elite most likely don't know what they are doing, and just
    acting arbitrarily.

    Which is what happening here in Michigan. Our Tyrant... er.. Governor
    is making decisions based on bad models that have neen disproven and,
    even then, the decisions have no rational thought behind them at all.

    Flu infections rate rise and fall. Coronavirus will spread more, as
    will the common cold and flu, because as social restrictions are
    relaxed. This will mean person to person trasmissions rates will rise above their current, suppressed levels. The question is, whether this will result in more restrictions.

    It will if the control freaks can spin the numbers and panic people
    more.

    I think we are fighting 2 battles right now:
    1. Against the people who want to seize power and control us.
    2. Misinformation that causes people to be afraid - which reduces their ability to think clearly (i.e. they are more apt to let the control
    freaks have more power).

    To be honest, if your local Tyrant is using models, that is a step up from what I've seen where it based just on gut instinct and image. If Coronavirus turns out to be much less lethal than first presumed (a certainty), then they will use the lower death rates as evidence of why we need their controls, and how us blindly following their dicatates is a good thing. When this virus startes spreading, death rates of 2-6% were bandied about. It is probably about 1/2 a percent, perhaps a bit more, perhaps less.

    As for the battles, I see a rise in a type of 'managerial elite', that is a class of people who are assuming control based on false pretenses. Those false pretenses you mentioned earlier, that they are the 'smartest people in the room', and that we should trust experts to make decisions. They demand a kind of deference, where we subjugate our needs to their vision, because they know better where humanity is supposed to go. The rise of "populism" is a reaction against this, and sorely needed. Following the vision of "the elite", is a disaster. Their role is our SERVANTS. If we want our national identity, sovreignty, our jobs to stay here, then their role is to make it happen, NOT to tell us we are wrong in what we want, and what they want is correct. This arrogance needs to be punished.

    Now, one can argue that sometimes the population is wrong, and that some people know better. That can be true, but they must educate us, show us, convince us, not just arrogantly rule us and call us 'deplorables' or 'regressives'.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Mind's Eye - mindseye.ddns.net - Melbourne Australia
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Arelor on Sat May 30 13:01:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Tracker1 on Fri May 29 2020 06:31 pm

    Fascism isn't socialism, thought some have argued that it is a type of socialism. It could be argued that the Soviet Union wasn't really Socialist either. In practice though, Fascist Italy and Nationalist Socialist Germany were NOT Socialist. The workers did not own the means of production.

    I beg to differ.

    Speaking of a case I know because it is close, if you check Spanish Fascist propaganda from both the present and the past, you can tell it
    is extremely socialistic.

    The whole point for them is that the means of production are to be controled by Unions, and that strategic services belong to the country, which means they belong to people. Because the country is the people.

    What happened in practice is that Union leaders were appointed by
    General Francisco Franco and friends but the whole idea was that
    strategic services belonged to the people through Unions and
    government. If you check the whole rethoric it is easy to see Fascism worked a lot like State Communism, but instead of class struggle, their based their propaganda on "national struggle" (our people against the
    rest of the world).

    On the other hand, in my opinion, economic systems built around the concept of wealth distribution have socialist tendencies at the very least. This includes National _Socialism_. In fact the Nazi party had internal struggles with dead people over the application of socialist policies.

    ---
    = Synchronet = Vertrauen = Home of Synchronet = [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net


    You are somewhat correct. The vision was of a corporatist style model of governance, where the state did run everything, and that workers would be represeted in the state. This could be construed as a type of Socialism, but it wasn't Marxism, and it didn't have the same end-goals as Marxist Socialism. However, I don't believe it belongs in the same economic spectrum as the ideologies which ARE typically considered to be "Socialism". Socialism for me, has a very specific meaning. Fascism is "socialist like", yes, but there are many other alternative economic systems which as "socialist like".

    The reason I prefer to simply class it as it own system, rather than lump it with Socialism, is that if we lump any "socalist like" system as Socialism, then most people will infer that all these systems have the same characteristics as Marxism, and therefore all must fail and must be eschewed.

    I support an ownership economy, and universal self-employment, where labour, not capital is the rightful owner of the result of a production process. This is far enough removed from Marxism to be separate, but COULD be considered Socialism. But if it were called "Socialism", then people would simply ascribe the same properties to this as they would to Marxism, and dismiss it.

    So while I think your analysis of history is correct, for pragmatic and political reasons, I would not class Fascism as a form of Socialism.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Mind's Eye - mindseye.ddns.net - Melbourne Australia
  • From paulie420@PAULIE42 to Dr. What on Fri May 29 19:02:28 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dr. What to Moondog on Fri May 29 2020 10:14 am

    Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.

    And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, but the vast majority don't get it.

    Yea, I don't mean to be a conspiracy theorist... but I won't be taking any round 1, first at bat vaccine they come up with. I'm handling COVID just fine as is...

    |08Paulie|15420
    |15M|08@|15STERM|07i|15ND
    |14AmericanPiBBS|04.com|07

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ >>>American Pi BBS @ AmericanPiBBS.com:23>>>Rockin like its 1993!>>>
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Dr. What on Sat May 30 18:23:00 2020
    On 05-29-20 10:48, Dr. What wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The problem with stats is that they are so easily subverted.

    Here in the U.S., the death stats are simply wrong. We have people in hospitals that are being told to list a death as COVID-19 even if it
    had nothing to do with the death. So if a person was in a car accident and died in the hospital from those injuries, if they tested positive
    for COVID-19, then it was a COVID-19 death.

    If you look at the stats, you'll see that we've pretty much eliminated things like heart disease (because those numbers dropped heavily) while COVID-19 numbers went up. That's pretty fishy to me.

    Some good points made, but without references, it's just hearsay.

    Others have done a more in depth analysis of the numbers and are now saying that our actualy COVID-19 death numbers are actually closer to
    50% what is being reported.

    That part, I believe, assuming you've quoted good sources.

    As far as COVID-19 cases go, most people had it, didn't show symptoms, never got tested and recovered. Those numbers are rarely added to the cases number. Based on the antibody tests so far, the case numbers are
    off by a factor of 50-85 (i.e. 50 to 85 TIMES the reported numbers).

    Again, if true (and not simply hearsay), that is very interesting. I have seen something which indicated COVID-19 could have been circulating in the USA for aomw time, which makes the likelihood of finding many more people exposed much higher. However, the antibody test has a 5% false positive rate, which will skew the figures. I wish I have kept the article with that reference.

    So, for compairson, what did Australia count? The real numbers, or the same fake numbers that other countries did?

    Well, that I don't really know for sure. I just have to take them on face value, in the absence of anything better. However, I am not aware of any antibody tests taking place here, so we have no way of knowing how many people have actually been exposed.


    ... I belong to no organized party - I am a walrus.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Moondog on Sat May 30 18:25:00 2020
    On 05-29-20 15:19, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Having a focus or long term plan makes using the clubs resources
    wisely. In the past buildings owuld've been built and earth moved

    Agree totally, and I think your board seems to be doing a good job there. And some thought being put into appropriate resourcing too, to maximise the effectiveness of your investment.


    ... "Windows Performance", on the next "In Search Of".
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to The Lizard Master on Sat May 30 19:11:00 2020
    On 05-29-20 12:38, The Lizard Master wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.

    And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, but the vast majority don't get it.

    I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that
    ended up in the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu at the same time. He probably would have been
    okay with just one or the other, ended up on a vent and almost died.

    I haven't got the flu shot yet, mainly because I've had a good degree of natural immunity, but given that I do emergency service work, I suspect that flu shots will become mandatory before too long, and at that time, I will take it. And I'll also get the COVID-19 shot when it comes out.


    ... The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Moondog on Sat May 30 19:30:00 2020
    On 05-29-20 21:28, Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Back in 2010 the swine flu kicked my ass. I wasn't quite at the point

    I had a strange (but minor) illness in 2009. Later, I found out someone I used to hang out with at the local gym had swine flu, which put him out of action for a month. For me it was only a couple of days, but I remember because it was unlike anything I had before, so it's possible it was swine flu. I've also had similar reactions to other major flu outbreaks that laid people low for weeks.

    to be admittied in a hospital, but it made me more aware of how
    vulnerable the older
    folks are. When the vaccine does appear, people will line up, but I
    can imagine within 2-3 years turnout won't be much more than what it is now for the normal flu shots.

    Given the unknown factor of COVID-19, this is one I would definitely line up for. And the flu shot is likely in the not too distant future too.


    ... Diplomacy gets you out of what tact would have prevented.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Arelor to Dennisk on Sat May 30 05:38:50 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sat May 30 2020 01:01 pm

    So while I think your analysis of history is correct, for pragmatic and political reasons, I would not class Fascism as a form of Socialism.

    Hello, Dennisk,

    I agree it is very clear that Fascism is not derived from Marxism or Hegel ideas. However, failing to recognize Fascism as a socialist (or socialist-like system if you will) is a disrespect to History and I also think it is very dangerous.

    Returning to Spain, the biggest Fascist party in modern days is Democracia Nacional (National Democracy). They describe themselves as a patriotic-socialist party (any coincidence with National Socialist is unintentional, I guess?) A whole lot of their marketing is built around the concept that they are not a right wing party, not at all, because they have all these socialistic goals in their programme. Unlike those old Fascist parties of old, that were capitalistic bastards that wanted to sell you to the Jew.

    Meanwhile, classic liberals get labeled as Fascists because if they
    are extremist but they are not Socialistic they must be fascist.

    I think these misslabelings are much more dangerous than risking people think that Communism and Fascism are related, because they are both Socialist Authoritarian systems. So for both pragmatical and political reasons, I prefer to classify Fascism as a non-Marxist Socialist system myself.
  • From Arelor to paulie420 on Sat May 30 05:41:53 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: paulie420 to Dr. What on Fri May 29 2020 07:02 pm

    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dr. What to Moondog on Fri May 29 2020 10:14 am

    Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.

    And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, bu the vast majority don't get it.

    Yea, I don't mean to be a conspiracy theorist... but I won't be taking any round 1, first at bat vaccine they come up with. I'm handling COVID just fin as is...

    |08Paulie|15420
    |15M|08@|15STERM|07i|15ND
    |14AmericanPiBBS|04.com|07


    Pretty much the same here. I am not an antivax or anything, but I have had pets develop very bad secondary effects from perfectly tested vaccines, and pets die to diseases they were vaccined agains. I am defering my vaccination until enough people has tested it for me.
  • From MRO@BBSESINF to The Lizard Master on Sat May 30 10:58:55 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: The Lizard Master to Dr. What on Fri May 29 2020 12:38 pm

    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dr. What to Moondog on Fri May 29 2020 10:14 am

    I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.

    And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, but the vast majority don't get it.

    I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that ended up the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu the same time. He probably would have been okay with just one or the other,


    that's just one guy you know out of many many others who dont have that problem. so no, everyone shouldnt get it.

    we should depend on our immune systems
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Sat May 30 10:27:00 2020
    Back in 2010 the swine flu kicked my ass. I wasn't quite at the point to be >admittied in a hospital, but it made me more aware of how vulnerable the older
    folks are. When the vaccine does appear, people will line up, but I can
    imagine within 2-3 years turnout won't be much more than what it is now for >the normal flu shots.


    I am not an anti-vaxer (I get my flu shot every year) but, if they rush
    this vaccine to market like they seem to want to, I will be leary of it.
    They need to take the time to test it first and see what happens.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "It's Ensign Polo. He's thread, Jim!"

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Ogg@EOTLBBS to All on Sat May 30 13:06:00 2020
    Hello TLM!

    ** On Friday 29.05.20 - 12:38, the.lizard.master wrote to Dr. What:

    And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, but
    the vast majority don't get it.

    I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that ended up in the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu at the same time. He probably would have been okay with just one or the other, ended up on a vent and almost died.

    What was your friend's health before this happened? Obese? Diabetic?
    Taking meds? Or had some other pre-existing condition? Over 80% affected terribly by covid19 usually have some other problem already.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@PALANT to Arelor on Sun May 31 10:38:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sat May 30 2020 01:01 pm

    So while I think your analysis of history is correct, for pragmatic and political reasons, I would not class Fascism as a form of Socialism.

    Hello, Dennisk,

    I agree it is very clear that Fascism is not derived from Marxism or
    Hegel ideas. However, failing to recognize Fascism as a socialist (or socialist-like system if you will) is a disrespect to History and I
    also think it is very dangerous.

    I will have to confess a degree of ignorance about modern Spanish politics. I think the question here is, what socio-economic system is normative? You are suggesting that ANY Socialist-like system must not be considered?

    If that is so, where does that leave us? Does this mean we cannot question Capitalism?

    Returning to Spain, the biggest Fascist party in modern days is
    Democracia Nacional (National Democracy). They describe themselves as a patriotic-socialist party (any coincidence with National Socialist is unintentional, I guess?) A whole lot of their marketing is built around the concept that they are not a right wing party, not at all, because
    they have all these socialistic goals in their programme. Unlike those
    old Fascist parties of old, that were capitalistic bastards that wanted
    to sell you to the Jew.

    Perhaps ANY anti-establishment system will also be anti-Capitalist. I don't subscribe to the idea that Capitalism is some natural system, it is an accident of history. It stands to reason, from purely logical grounds, that people would move towards some type of "socialist-like" system, because we are a social species.

    Meanwhile, classic liberals get labeled as Fascists because if they
    are extremist but they are not Socialistic they must be fascist.

    I've noted this too, and this mislabelling makes no sense. People are just throwing out the "fascist" label as a smear, not a descriptor of that persons politics.

    I think these misslabelings are much more dangerous than risking people think that Communism and Fascism are related, because they are both Socialist Authoritarian systems. So for both pragmatical and political reasons, I prefer to classify Fascism as a non-Marxist Socialist system myself.

    But then what is NOT a Socialist system? I am viewing things in terms of how we could move from our current situation. I see our world as being stuck, ossified, unable to adapt to change or fix structural problems. The automatic rejection of any change of the system, by such labelling is an issue.

    I'm looking to the FUTURE, and seeing that the West is in decline, and we will lose our position in terms of quality of life, and power in the world. Our economic system in part is dead. How do we solve the problem of concentration of wealth? Of a small number of people undermining nations by control of capital? There are errors itself in Capitalism, and these have to be addressed.

    But the question is, how far can we deviate from the current system, without it being labelled "Socialism" or "Socialist-like", and taken off the table?

    As I said, I support an ownership economy and universal self employment. I believe that Capital is making claims to productive activity that are not justified. Are these "Socialist" ideas? Because if in your analysis, this is "socialist-like", then I would rather side with the Patriotic-Socialist party, than the current system.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Wizzkidd@NITEEYES to Vk3jed on Sun May 31 02:48:31 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Vk3jed to Tracker1 on Fri May 29 2020 07:36 pm

    So what is a b

    a female dog

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From Wizzkidd@NITEEYES to DaiTengu on Sun May 31 03:02:39 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: DaiTengu to Dr. What on Fri May 29 2020 09:59 am

    You're literally projecting here. You're projecting fearmongering and projecting projecting. This is the most meta shit I've seen this week.

    It's kind of rare to see projecting projecting. It's usually when you're watching a movie in a movie theater and there is a scene with a projector. I've only seen it 3 times. Cinema Paradiso, The Aviator, and some other movie. I'm glad to see it here.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Arelor on Sat May 30 23:35:00 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Arelor to Dennisk on Sat May 30 2020 05:38 am



    I think these misslabelings are much more dangerous than risking people thin that Communism and Fascism are related, because they are both Socialist Authoritarian systems. So for both pragmatical and political reasons, I pref to classify Fascism as a non-Marxist Socialist system myself.

    I think that is a fair choice of words. By definition fascism is right wing anti-socialist authoritarian nationalism. Society and the economy are
    strictly controlled in order to maintain a strong one party state.

    Liberal democracy is believed to impede progress and a single point of authority can make decisions un-opposed. It's all about the state instead
    of the pretense it's about the people.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Arelor to Dennisk on Sun May 31 02:36:47 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun May 31 2020 10:38 am

    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sat May 30 2020 01:01 pm

    So while I think your analysis of history is correct, for pragmatic and political reasons, I would not class Fascism as a form of Socialism.

    Hello, Dennisk,

    I agree it is very clear that Fascism is not derived from Marxism or Hegel ideas. However, failing to recognize Fascism as a socialist (or socialist-like system if you will) is a disrespect to History and I also think it is very dangerous.

    I will have to confess a degree of ignorance about modern Spanish politics. think the question here is, what socio-economic system is normative? You ar suggesting that ANY Socialist-like system must not be considered?

    If that is so, where does that leave us? Does this mean we cannot question Capitalism?

    Returning to Spain, the biggest Fascist party in modern days is Democracia Nacional (National Democracy). They describe themselves as a patriotic-socialist party (any coincidence with National Socialist is unintentional, I guess?) A whole lot of their marketing is built around the concept that they are not a right wing party, not at all, because they have all these socialistic goals in their programme. Unlike those old Fascist parties of old, that were capitalistic bastards that wanted to sell you to the Jew.

    Perhaps ANY anti-establishment system will also be anti-Capitalist. I don't subscribe to the idea that Capitalism is some natural system, it is an accid of history. It stands to reason, from purely logical grounds, that people would move towards some type of "socialist-like" system, because we are a social species.

    Meanwhile, classic liberals get labeled as Fascists because if they
    are extremist but they are not Socialistic they must be fascist.

    I've noted this too, and this mislabelling makes no sense. People are just throwing out the "fascist" label as a smear, not a descriptor of that person politics.

    I think these misslabelings are much more dangerous than risking people think that Communism and Fascism are related, because they are both Socialist Authoritarian systems. So for both pragmatical and political reasons, I prefer to classify Fascism as a non-Marxist Socialist system myself.

    But then what is NOT a Socialist system? I am viewing things in terms of ho we could move from our current situation. I see our world as being stuck, ossified, unable to adapt to change or fix structural problems. The automat rejection of any change of the system, by such labelling is an issue.

    I'm looking to the FUTURE, and seeing that the West is in decline, and we wi lose our position in terms of quality of life, and power in the world. Our economic system in part is dead. How do we solve the problem of concentrati of wealth? Of a small number of people undermining nations by control of capital? There are errors itself in Capitalism, and these have to be addressed.

    But the question is, how far can we deviate from the current system, without being labelled "Socialism" or "Socialist-like", and taken off the table?

    As I said, I support an ownership economy and universal self employment. I believe that Capital is making claims to productive activity that are not justified. Are these "Socialist" ideas? Because if in your analysis, this i "socialist-like", then I would rather side with the Patriotic-Socialist part than the current system.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    I was making no particular claim regarding socialism itself - whether it should be considered or not. On the other hand, since you want an answer, I think hard Socialist systems are monopolies and feature concentration of wealth and power issues. There is no difference between the means of production being owned by massive Unions appointed by some overlord or by some corporation which is there because it bought some ministers.

    Capitalism is a very social system on paper. You get boons for providing goods and services to fellow humans who need them. Humans are also quite competitive and won't work if they don't get something out of it, which is why I think capitalistic tendencies are natural. Not that I have ever bought the natural fallacy. Besides, if the establishment is Socialist, which is not such a weird occurence, I would expect anti-establishment currents not to be necessarily anti-capitalistic...

    Since you are asking for a definition: Socialis is the system that employs cohercitive messures to enforce egalitarian wealth distribution (to different degrees) and tries to push the economy towards a pre planned script.

    And no, you cannot propose a Socialist system and complain that it is labeled as a Socialist system. Well, you can, but doing so is weird. In any case, the point is moot. Socialist governments are a monopoly over the means of production just the same way "late stage capitalism" is - with a difference, at least in Socialism, that the monopoly is enforced instead of being a natural event.

    I am not particullarly fond of the future. Quality of life will decline in the long run regarding economic system just because there will be more people in the same ball of mud competing for less resources. Empiric evidence suggests Socialism is not an answer because population in Socialists countries likes to purchase lots of goods and services from the government (ie: they are prone to consumism). If the Socialist government slows consummerism down, there are riots and protests and political implications. First reaction when the government closes a government funder service are protests and riots...
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Wizzkidd on Sun May 31 20:31:00 2020
    On 05-31-20 02:48, Wizzkidd wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    @VIA: VERT/NITEEYES
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Vk3jed to Tracker1 on Fri May 29 2020 07:36 pm

    So what is a b

    a female dog

    :)


    ... I understand your concerns. Request denied. - Data
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Wizzkidd on Sun May 31 09:56:00 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Wizzkidd to DaiTengu on Sun May 31 2020 03:02 am

    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: DaiTengu to Dr. What on Fri May 29 2020 09:59 am

    You're literally projecting here. You're projecting fearmongering and projecting projecting. This is the most meta shit I've seen this week.

    It's kind of rare to see projecting projecting. It's usually when you're wa


    Is that like what was happening in the movie Inception?

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to DaiTengu on Sun May 31 09:35:00 2020
    DaiTengu wrote to Dr. What <=-

    You're literally projecting here. You're projecting fearmongering and projecting projecting. This is the most meta shit I've seen this
    week.

    Let's see...

    On the Leftie Media, I see "COVID-19 death counts increase", "... case numbers go up". From other lefties, I hear "Wear a mask or your killing grandma!", and more nonsence. Not to mention the supression of non-Narrative information on social media.

    From the right, I hear much more positive things, actually followed up by facts and real numbers.

    "They want to take away all our guns!"

    Like Beto clearly stated that he wanted to. Like many leftie politicians have clearly stated several times.

    "Countless innocent American lives have been stolen because our
    politicians have failed in their duty to secure our borders!"

    You don't get out much, do you? I don't have the time to find all the murders (and other crimes) committed by illegal aliens. Many of which have been sent back and returned - to commit more crimes.

    "Socialism will destroy our country!"

    Just like it's destroyed every other country where it's been implemented.


    So, we have a projecting Leftie claiming that a non-projecting-leftie is projecting. Certainly very meta this week.


    Trump was literally elected by scaring the shit out of his conservative base.

    Trump won because the Socialist lefties took over the Democratic party and pushed it so far left that many middle and near left voters became disgusted with the party. #WalkAway is not the myth that the Lefties make it out to be.


    ... Any sufficiently advanced technology looks like magic.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to The Lizard Master on Sun May 31 09:37:00 2020
    The Lizard Master wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that
    ended up in the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu at the same time. He probably would have been
    okay with just one or the other, ended up on a vent and almost died.

    I've gotten my flu shot every year since college.

    One year, I was visiting my grandparents and they told me that we were all going to get a flu shot. I didn't think much of it, so I got it. I was one of the few that didn't get hit with the flu that year in college.

    But we are the minority, it seems.

    ... Stop talking! I'm out of aspirin!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to HusTler on Sun May 31 09:39:00 2020
    HusTler wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Control is an illusion. Nobody has control over anyone or anything
    in this world. We all could be gone (Dead) tomorrow and there's not a
    damn thing we can do about. Sure you may think you have control but the the reality is you don't.

    You are correct that we do not have control over external things. But I have control over what I think and do, and how I react to something. I have control over me.

    Perhaps that's why the Left seems to have so much control today. We haven't been teaching people how to control themselves.


    ... I haven't lost my mind, it's backed up on disk
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Moondog on Sun May 31 09:40:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Back in 2010 the swine flu kicked my ass. I wasn't quite at the point
    to be admittied in a hospital, but it made me more aware of how
    vulnerable the older
    folks are. When the vaccine does appear, people will line up, but I
    can imagine within 2-3 years turnout won't be much more than what it is now for the normal flu shots.

    But by then, we'll have herd immunity and it simply won't spread very far.

    Of course, the argument can be made today that we have it now.


    ... A stitch in time would have confused Einstein.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to paulie420 on Sun May 31 09:47:00 2020
    paulie420 wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Yea, I don't mean to be a conspiracy theorist... but I won't be taking
    any round 1, first at bat vaccine they come up with. I'm handling COVID just fine as is...

    At some point, my wife's job will have her get an antibody test. If that comes back positive, then I know I have it as well.

    We both had a mysterious illness back in Dec./Jan. and figured it was COVID-19 since that would line up with the timeframe they are showing now.

    But, as a computer professional of over 30 years, I've long ago learned never to trust version 1.0 of anything. 8)
    So we won't be getting the vaccine (my wife may be required to, though, for her job).


    ... I'm not spoiled...I'm not, I'm not, I'm not!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Moondog on Sun May 31 10:22:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Arelor <=-

    I think that is a fair choice of words. By definition fascism is right wing anti-socialist authoritarian nationalism. Society and the economy are strictly controlled in order to maintain a strong one party state.

    I don't know what definition of "fascism" you are using, but it's certainly not right wing.

    Your own description "Society and the economy are strictly controlled in order to maintain a strong one party state." places it fascism squarely on the left.

    Many people think that "socialism" is rule of the people. But that's always been false. It's rule of gov't. So whoever runs the gov't effectively rules the people. That's why socialist (and fascist) states have always devolved into totalitarian states.


    ... Get gun. Shoot computer. Turn off lights...
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From MRO@BBSESINF to Dr. What on Sun May 31 11:59:35 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dr. What to The Lizard Master on Sun May 31 2020 09:37 am

    The Lizard Master wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that ended up in the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu at the same time. He probably would have been okay with just one or the other, ended up on a vent and almost died.

    I've gotten my flu shot every year since college.

    One year, I was visiting my grandparents and they told me that we were all going to get a flu shot. I didn't think much of it, so I got it. I was one the few that didn't get hit with the flu that year in college.


    i never got a flu shot and i havent go the flu since i was 18
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Ogg@EOTLBBS to All on Sun May 31 12:54:00 2020
    Hello Dr.!

    ** On Sunday 31.05.20 - 09:47, dr..what wrote to paulie420:

    Yea, I don't mean to be a conspiracy theorist... but I won't be taking pa>> any round 1, first at bat vaccine they come up with. I'm handling COVID pa>> just fine as is...

    But, as a computer professional of over 30 years, I've long ago learned
    never to trust version 1.0 of anything. 8)
    So we won't be getting the vaccine (my wife may be required to, though, for her job).

    It is probably very wise to take a stance and reject v 1.0. Maybe there will be an option to reject it on religious or some other grounds.

    Remember Thalidomide? There were several other drugs that claimed to be safe, and turned out to be the opposite.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Thumper@THEWASTE to Dr. What on Sun May 31 11:16:57 2020
    We've always wondered here as my whole company and my wife's company came down with something horrible in January. Some people ended up in the hospital......

    -=Thumper=-
    Sysop

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ -=The Wastelands BBS=- -=Since 1990=-
  • From Arelor to Dr. What on Sun May 31 12:21:22 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dr. What to Moondog on Sun May 31 2020 10:22 am

    I don't know what definition of "fascism" you are using, but it's certainly right wing.

    Your own description "Society and the economy are strictly controlled in ord to maintain a strong one party state." places it fascism squarely on the lef

    I think that the main (and original) definition of right wing vs left wing is related to the adherence to traditional values.

    So, a group that cares for tradition, historical religious values, traditional family structures and such is to the right of a group that disregards tradition, disregards historical religious values, and has a liberal idea of what a family is supposed to be like.

    Are you familiar with the Nolan chart? According to the Nolan model, ideologies are placed in two different axis. One is the economical axis, which ranges from total free market to total government control; another axis is the personal freedom axis, that ranges from the government not caring what you do with your life, and the government jailing you for playing DnD or being gay.

    Fascism scores near 0% economic freedom, 0% personal freedom. Communism also does, although they police for different things.
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to MRO on Sun May 31 21:24:29 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Sat May 30 2020 10:58 am

    I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that ended up the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu the same time. He probably would have been okay with just one or the other,


    that's just one guy you know out of many many others who dont have that problem. so no, everyone shouldnt get it.

    we should depend on our immune systems

    That's what the shot does.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Ogg on Sun May 31 21:25:23 2020
    Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Ogg to All on Sat May 30 2020 01:06 pm

    I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that ended up in the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu at the same time. He probably would have been okay with just one or the other, ended up on a vent and almost died.

    What was your friend's health before this happened? Obese? Diabetic?
    Taking meds? Or had some other pre-existing condition? Over 80% affected terribly by covid19 usually have some other problem already.

    My apologies for not having his chart at the ready.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Dr. What on Sun May 31 21:30:44 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dr. What to paulie420 on Sun May 31 2020 09:47 am

    At some point, my wife's job will have her get an antibody test. If that comes back positive, then I know I have it as well.

    At least in my area if you give blood they test it for antibodies.

    Not sure if that's widespread or not.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Dr. What on Mon Jun 1 11:30:00 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dr. What to Moondog on Sun May 31 2020 10:22 am

    Moondog wrote to Arelor <=-

    I think that is a fair choice of words. By definition fascism is right wing anti-socialist authoritarian nationalism. Society and the economy are strictly controlled in order to maintain a strong one party state.

    I don't know what definition of "fascism" you are using, but it's certainly right wing.

    Your own description "Society and the economy are strictly controlled in ord to maintain a strong one party state." places it fascism squarely on the lef

    Many people think that "socialism" is rule of the people. But that's always been false. It's rule of gov't. So whoever runs the gov't effectively rule the people. That's why socialist (and fascist) states have always devolved into totalitarian states.


    ... Get gun. Shoot computer. Turn off lights...

    Socialism in real world practice is by no means socialism/ collectivism. It's
    closer to fascism/ statism. True socialism and collectivism only works when every buys into the system. In the real world very few are content with equality of condition, so at some point the governemnt steps in to
    weed out the folks who are not content so they don't contaminate the rest of the state.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@BBSESINF to The Lizard Master on Mon Jun 1 17:21:01 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Sun May 31 2020 09:24 pm

    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Sat May 30 2020 10:58 am

    I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that end up the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 an the Flu the same time. He probably would have been okay with just one the other,


    that's just one guy you know out of many many others who dont have that problem. so no, everyone shouldnt get it.

    we should depend on our immune systems

    That's what the shot does.

    keep dreaming about the shot
    ---
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  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to MRO on Mon Jun 1 19:45:32 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Mon Jun 01 2020 05:21 pm

    That's what the shot does.

    keep dreaming about the shot

    Okay, but that is how it works.

    ---TLM

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  • From Dennisk@DUNGEON to Arelor on Mon Jun 1 20:49:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun May 31 2020 10:38 am

    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sat May 30 2020 01:01 pm

    So while I think your analysis of history is correct, for pragmatic and political reasons, I would not class Fascism as a form of Socialism.

    Hello, Dennisk,

    I agree it is very clear that Fascism is not derived from Marxism or Hegel ideas. However, failing to recognize Fascism as a socialist (or socialist-like system if you will) is a disrespect to History and I also think it is very dangerous.

    I will have to confess a degree of ignorance about modern Spanish politics. think the question here is, what socio-economic system is normative? You ar suggesting that ANY Socialist-like system must not be considered?

    If that is so, where does that leave us? Does this mean we cannot question Capitalism?

    Returning to Spain, the biggest Fascist party in modern days is Democracia Nacional (National Democracy). They describe themselves as a patriotic-socialist party (any coincidence with National Socialist is unintentional, I guess?) A whole lot of their marketing is built around the concept that they are not a right wing party, not at all, because they have all these socialistic goals in their programme. Unlike those old Fascist parties of old, that were capitalistic bastards that wanted to sell you to the Jew.

    Perhaps ANY anti-establishment system will also be anti-Capitalist. I don't subscribe to the idea that Capitalism is some natural system, it is an accid of history. It stands to reason, from purely logical grounds, that people would move towards some type of "socialist-like" system, because we are a social species.

    Meanwhile, classic liberals get labeled as Fascists because if they
    are extremist but they are not Socialistic they must be fascist.

    I've noted this too, and this mislabelling makes no sense. People are just throwing out the "fascist" label as a smear, not a descriptor of that person politics.

    I think these misslabelings are much more dangerous than risking people think that Communism and Fascism are related, because they are both Socialist Authoritarian systems. So for both pragmatical and political reasons, I prefer to classify Fascism as a non-Marxist Socialist system myself.

    But then what is NOT a Socialist system? I am viewing things in terms of ho we could move from our current situation. I see our world as being stuck, ossified, unable to adapt to change or fix structural problems. The automat rejection of any change of the system, by such labelling is an issue.

    I'm looking to the FUTURE, and seeing that the West is in decline, and we wi lose our position in terms of quality of life, and power in the world. Our economic system in part is dead. How do we solve the problem of concentrati of wealth? Of a small number of people undermining nations by control of capital? There are errors itself in Capitalism, and these have to be addressed.

    But the question is, how far can we deviate from the current system, without being labelled "Socialism" or "Socialist-like", and taken off the table?

    As I said, I support an ownership economy and universal self employment. I believe that Capital is making claims to productive activity that are not justified. Are these "Socialist" ideas? Because if in your analysis, this i "socialist-like", then I would rather side with the Patriotic-Socialist part than the current system.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    I was making no particular claim regarding socialism itself - whether
    it should be considered or not. On the other hand, since you want an answer, I think hard Socialist systems are monopolies and feature concentration of wealth and power issues. There is no difference
    between the means of production being owned by massive Unions appointed
    by some overlord or by some corporation which is there because it
    bought some ministers.

    Concentrations of wealth and power indicate a faulty economic system. That is to say, the system is not allocating wealth to those who create it, as the creation of wealth is in practice, more egalitarian than the financial end result of both Capitalism and Socialism.

    Capitalism is a very social system on paper. You get boons for
    providing goods and services to fellow humans who need them. Humans are also quite competitive and won't work if they don't get something out
    of it, which is why I think capitalistic tendencies are natural. Not
    that I have ever bought the natural fallacy. Besides, if the
    establishment is Socialist, which is not such a weird occurence, I
    would expect anti-establishment currents not to be necessarily anti-capitalistic...

    I disagree. The natural state of humanity is a Socialistic tribe, with trade inbetween tribes. The idea that each person is an economic individual trading with others is ahistoric. We have evolved to exist in small groups, where that small group works for the commons.

    Now, if we have a Capitalist system, where you have families or extended families working together, this is close to the natural state, but for some reason, the system is anti-family and tends to push towards hyper-individualism, which is not humanistic.

    Since you are asking for a definition: Socialis is the system that
    employs cohercitive messures to enforce egalitarian wealth distribution (to different degrees) and tries to push the economy towards a pre
    planned script.

    However, if those coercive measures are to fix a previous erroneous system... The argument that wealth distribution is bad, holds true only if it can be argued that the appropriation of wealth was just in the first place.

    And no, you cannot propose a Socialist system and complain that it is labeled as a Socialist system. Well, you can, but doing so is weird. In any case, the point is moot. Socialist governments are a monopoly over
    the means of production just the same way "late stage capitalism" is - with a difference, at least in Socialism, that the monopoly is enforced instead of being a natural event.

    The idea of "owning the means of production" is the error here. Both Capitalism and Communism are based on who "owns the means of production", which I think is the real flaw in the debate here. To take an analogy, it is like being in Ancient Greece, and arguing whether slaves should be privately owned (the Athenian model) or publicaly owned (the Spartan model). We could conclude the Athenian model is better, but the real question is whether we can own slaves at all.

    This is the problem with the Capitalist/Communist debate. Both systems are based on flawed premises, and because the debate is always framed with very specific questions, these flawed premises are not considered at all.

    I argue that one can own Capital, one can own a factory, equipment, tools, resources, etc, but the productive activity itself is conducted by labour. Capital is a factor supplier. Here is where I disagree with Capitalism. The party undertaking a productive activity is not a "property right" that can be owned.

    Capital, and production is still privately owned, but in a system of universal self employment, labour which conducts a productive activity is the rightful owner of what it creates, and also responsible for any liabilities that result (ie, cost of inputs).

    I am not particullarly fond of the future. Quality of life will decline
    in the long run regarding economic system just because there will be
    more people in the same ball of mud competing for less resources.
    Empiric evidence suggests Socialism is not an answer because population
    in Socialists countries likes to purchase lots of goods and services
    from the government (ie: they are prone to consumism). If the Socialist government slows consummerism down, there are riots and protests and political implications. First reaction when the government closes a government funder service are protests and riots...

    Capitalism cannot provide a solution because the allocation of resources is based on who is afforded property rights over a productive activity, AS ENFORCED BY THE STATE. Because no one can envisage any modification, or even fully understand our current system of property rights, how allocation of resources is shaped by the kind of contracts that are permitted is not really considered. That is to say, our legal system allows certain types of property, and property rights to come into being, and it is this pattern of property rights which ends up dictating how Capitalism works.

    Socialists get this wrong. The think "Private Capital" is the problem, and wish to abolish Capitalism entirely. That is stupid. It's like abolishing families because the divorce court has been making decisions that have incentivised people to get divorced instead of working on their marriage.

    It is the system of property rights which is really the problem with our system. The property rights are heavily skewed towards serving capital. We invent property rights simply to create new forms of capital.

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  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to ARELOR on Mon Jun 1 19:21:00 2020
    Fascism scores near 0% economic freedom, 0% personal freedom. Communism also does, although they police for different things.

    How dare you? I am soooo triggered right now that you would compare
    Communism to Fascism. How dare you?

    ... would be what I would say if I was one of my leftist former
    classmates. As I am not, I have always believed that one is not the answer
    to the other because they are both 0% for nearly all freedoms that matter, especially if they decide you are not one of them.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Now it's dark.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to THE LIZARD MASTER on Mon Jun 1 19:22:00 2020
    that's just one guy you know out of many many others who dont have that problem. so no, everyone shouldnt get it.

    we should depend on our immune systems

    That's what the shot does.

    As a shot for Wuhan Coronavirus does not exist yet, we don't really know
    what it will do... especially if they rush it to market too soon.


    * SLMR 2.1a * He's dim, Jed.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to MRO on Tue Jun 2 10:05:00 2020
    MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

    i never got a flu shot and i havent go the flu since i was 18

    And I've heard that before from various people. So there's not a certain benefit.

    In my case, my insurance pays for it and the only ill effects is a slight stiffness for about 6 hours. So no real negative effects and probable positive effects. So, overall, I think it's still good.


    ... Never trust a person who says, "Trust Me"....
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  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Thumper on Tue Jun 2 10:07:00 2020
    Thumper wrote to Dr. What <=-

    We've always wondered here as my whole company and my wife's company
    came down with something horrible in January. Some people ended up in
    the hospital......

    Yup. That's the current thought. We'd need the antibody tests to be sure, though.

    But if that's the case, the whole shutdown was useless. The disease had already spread by the time anything was shutdown.


    ... Never trust a person who says, "Trust Me"....
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Arelor on Tue Jun 2 10:14:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I think that the main (and original) definition of right wing vs left
    wing is related to the adherence to traditional values.

    The meaning has changed over time. Today they are just a measure of how far apart politically someone is.

    JFK was a Democrat (and, therefore, "left") but today he'd have more in common with Republicans.

    Are you familiar with the Nolan chart?

    No. I just looked that up. Very interesting. I've often though that the "Right/Left" idea as a bit simplistic. Many people seem to be on different sides depending on the topic (the Nolan Model economic/personal axis).

    Fascism scores near 0% economic freedom, 0% personal freedom. Communism also does, although they police for different things.

    Both fascism and communism end up in the same place, though.


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  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to The Lizard Master on Tue Jun 2 10:16:00 2020
    The Lizard Master wrote to Dr. What <=-

    At least in my area if you give blood they test it for antibodies.

    That's nice.

    Not sure if that's widespread or not.

    It's getting there. There are many places (like Michigan) where they are being disouraged from doing that. It will most likely show that a much larger part of the population has already had it, making COVID-19 much less scary and not giving our tyrant an excuse to keep the state Constitution suspended.


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  • From Dr. What@TWODUDES to Moondog on Tue Jun 2 10:19:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Socialism in real world practice is by no means socialism/
    collectivism. It's
    closer to fascism/ statism. True socialism and collectivism only
    works when every buys into the system. In the real world very few are content with equality of condition, so at some point the governemnt
    steps in to weed out the folks who are not content so they don't contaminate the rest of the state.

    Have your read "Liars and Outliers" by Bruce Schneier?

    It's a very interesting book on why people cheat the system. It gives a good insight as to why true socialism cannot work.


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  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to Dumas Walker on Tue Jun 2 10:37:02 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dumas Walker to THE LIZARD MASTER on Mon Jun 01 2020 07:22 pm

    that's just one guy you know out of many many others who dont have that problem. so no, everyone shouldnt get it.

    we should depend on our immune systems

    That's what the shot does.

    As a shot for Wuhan Coronavirus does not exist yet, we don't really know what it will do... especially if they rush it to market too soon.

    We were talking about the Flu shot.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Wed Jun 3 15:16:00 2020
    Socialism in real world practice is by no means socialism/ collectivism. It's
    closer to fascism/ statism. True socialism and collectivism only works when
    every buys into the system. In the real world very few are content with >equality of condition, so at some point the governemnt steps in to
    weed out the folks who are not content so they don't contaminate the rest of >the state.

    Exactly. On a local level, socialism/collectivism can work, I believe.
    When I say "local," I mean as in a group of people who decide they all want
    to live together in that manner on a farm or some other collective and on
    land that one of them owns.

    As a form of governing a country, it will always devolve into some sort of Animal Farm type situation. Those who are in authority and want to hold
    onto the way of life will attempt to crush all dissent. Those not in
    authority will have little in the form of personal freedom. You cannot
    force people to give up everything and expect that they will just go along
    with it.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Southern DOS: Y'all reckon? (Yep/Nope)

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  • From Dumas Walker@CAPCITY2 to THE LIZARD MASTER on Wed Jun 3 15:39:00 2020
    We were talking about the Flu shot.

    My bad, based on what I had read of the thread I thought otherwise. I have been getting the annual flu shot for several years now.


    * SLMR 2.1a * I before E except after C, huh? Weird.....

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  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Dumas Walker on Thu Jun 4 20:14:00 2020
    Dumas Walker wrote to MOONDOG <=-

    Socialism in real world practice is by no means socialism/ collectivism. It's
    closer to fascism/ statism. True socialism and collectivism only works when
    every buys into the system. In the real world very few are content with
    equality of condition, so at some point the governemnt steps in to
    weed out the folks who are not content so they don't contaminate the rest of
    the state.

    Exactly. On a local level, socialism/collectivism can work, I believe. When I say "local," I mean as in a group of people who decide they all want to live together in that manner on a farm or some other collective and on land that one of them owns.

    As a form of governing a country, it will always devolve into some sort
    of Animal Farm type situation. Those who are in authority and want to hold onto the way of life will attempt to crush all dissent. Those not
    in authority will have little in the form of personal freedom. You
    cannot force people to give up everything and expect that they will
    just go along with it.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Southern DOS: Y'all reckon? (Yep/Nope)

    The change we need is to move towards an ownership economic, where the people (us), own and run the economy. We shouldn't move towards government ownership and regulation, but instead move towards universal self employment. Labour is the righful owner of what it produces, and we should have the same democratic rights in the workplace as we do in the public space. They are all the same space.

    The real issue isn't private control of Capital, the real issue is that people are alienated from their productive activities, and the employment contract is used to take away self-governance, and rightful property rights.

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  • From Arelor to Dennisk on Thu Jun 4 13:24:47 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Dumas Walker on Thu Jun 04 2020 08:14 pm

    The change we need is to move towards an ownership economic, where the peopl (us), own and run the economy. We shouldn't move towards government ownersh and regulation, but instead move towards universal self employment. Labour the righful owner of what it produces, and we should have the same democrati rights in the workplace as we do in the public space. They are all the same space.

    The real issue isn't private control of Capital, the real issue is that peop are alienated from their productive activities, and the employment contract used to take away self-governance, and rightful property rights.

    Here is the thing. Workplaces cannot be an horizontal democracy mecause some job positions are more expendable than others. The person who knows how to code that old nummeric control machine nobody else knows how to code is going to have much more of a say than the person who just moves boxes around in the warehouse.

    Anarcho-primitivists know this and their proposed solution is to ensure nobody knows how to code the machine, so everybody is at the same specialitation level and nobody is more important in the industry than the others. Which basically means no industrialitation and drastically less services in society, for the sake of equalty.

    I think I prefer working for a boss and having access to industrially produced medicines, lawmowers, Internet etc. than living in a purely horizontal society and dying of flu because there are no doctors.

    On the other hand, when you are the owner of your work, it is natural to intend to sell it at some point. When there is enough people buying and selling work, you go back to having the figure of the , shall we say, professional capitalist. Because let's face it, fund masters, bankers and the like, with all their Wall Street and abstract machinations, the onlñy thing they do is transfer work credits from people who wants to spend them to people who needs access to them.
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Arelor on Fri Jun 5 19:40:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Dumas Walker on Thu Jun 04 2020 08:14 pm

    The change we need is to move towards an ownership economic, where the peopl (us), own and run the economy. We shouldn't move towards government ownersh and regulation, but instead move towards universal self employment. Labour the righful owner of what it produces, and we should have the same democrati rights in the workplace as we do in the public space. They are all the same space.

    The real issue isn't private control of Capital, the real issue is that peop are alienated from their productive activities, and the employment contract used to take away self-governance, and rightful property rights.

    Here is the thing. Workplaces cannot be an horizontal democracy mecause some job positions are more expendable than others. The person who
    knows how to code that old nummeric control machine nobody else knows
    how to code is going to have much more of a say than the person who
    just moves boxes around in the warehouse.

    Anarcho-primitivists know this and their proposed solution is to ensure nobody knows how to code the machine, so everybody is at the same specialitation level and nobody is more important in the industry than
    the others. Which basically means no industrialitation and drastically less services in society, for the sake of equalty.

    I think I prefer working for a boss and having access to industrially produced medicines, lawmowers, Internet etc. than living in a purely horizontal society and dying of flu because there are no doctors.

    On the other hand, when you are the owner of your work, it is natural
    to intend to sell it at some point. When there is enough people buying
    and selling work, you go back to having the figure of the , shall we
    say, professional capitalist. Because let's face it, fund masters,
    bankers and the like, with all their Wall Street and abstract machinations, the onlñy thing they do is transfer work credits from
    people who wants to spend them to people who needs access to them.

    The 'say' that people have any organisation is based on the rules and charter of that organisation. And self-run labour organisation would have some form of structure which dictates how decisions are made, and the means by which the organisation decides. It may very well still have a council, or directors which are elected. Most would still have managers and executives, just as Democracies have elected officials who act on behalf of their constituents and agencies that execute governmental function. The Anarcho-Primitivists don't want an organisation at all, and don't want heirarchy.

    A system of self-employment is perfectly compatible with modern society and the structures necessary to run modern production processes.

    You raise a very good point about being 'the owner of your work'. That is EXACTLY what I'm fortify, ownership over work. Labour alone is responsible for production processes, and people owning what they produce, and being responsible for what is used up. This responsibility cannot be alienated, not in fact, and therefore not in law. Modern Capitalism has as one of its core tenets, belief in the fiction that labour is a transferable commodity, and that Capital can claim to be a residual claimaint of what is produced through a productive process. Capital definately has a role to play, as a factor supplier. Capital supplies capital as a cost. It is the ability for capital to claim that it 'employs labour' that is fictitious.

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  • From Arelor to Dennisk on Fri Jun 5 03:58:30 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Fri Jun 05 2020 07:40 pm

    The 'say' that people have any organisation is based on the rules and charte of that organisation. And self-run labour organisation would have some form structure which dictates how decisions are made, and the means by which the organisation decides. It may very well still have a council, or directors which are elected. Most would still have managers and executives, just as Democracies have elected officials who act on behalf of their constituents a agencies that execute governmental function. The Anarcho-Primitivists don' want an organisation at all, and don't want heirarchy.

    Well, I am going with the firms I know, but there is a lot of power outside of the official statutes of a firm. Some "floor zero" secretaries control the flow of a lot of information and can manipulate the path of the firm greatly. Some system administrators know how to operate something that nobody else knows how to operate... there are great power imbalances that have nothing to do with electability.

    Cooperatives and self-run orgs do work, but the only ones I know that do are extremely horizontal. Organizations where everybody roughly knows the same things and has similar productive power. So yeah, in those you can have elections for board positions that are clear and are not manipulated by shady interests.

    To be honest, building a democratic firm is a hard to swallow proposal, because it is too easy for you to put the work and build an organization, just to be kicked over during the next election and lose everything. And yes, I have also seen that.
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Arelor on Sat Jun 6 11:38:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Fri Jun 05 2020 07:40 pm

    The 'say' that people have any organisation is based on the rules and charte of that organisation. And self-run labour organisation would have some form structure which dictates how decisions are made, and the means by which the organisation decides. It may very well still have a council, or directors which are elected. Most would still have managers and executives, just as Democracies have elected officials who act on behalf of their constituents a agencies that execute governmental function. The Anarcho-Primitivists don' want an organisation at all, and don't want heirarchy.

    Well, I am going with the firms I know, but there is a lot of power outside of the official statutes of a firm. Some "floor zero"
    secretaries control the flow of a lot of information and can manipulate the path of the firm greatly. Some system administrators know how to operate something that nobody else knows how to operate... there are
    great power imbalances that have nothing to do with electability.

    Cooperatives and self-run orgs do work, but the only ones I know that
    do are extremely horizontal. Organizations where everybody roughly
    knows the same things and has similar productive power. So yeah, in
    those you can have elections for board positions that are clear and are not manipulated by shady interests.

    To be honest, building a democratic firm is a hard to swallow proposal, because it is too easy for you to put the work and build an
    organization, just to be kicked over during the next election and lose everything. And yes, I have also seen that.

    It all depends on the set up of the firm. If an admin is holding the company 'hostage', so to speak, due to monopolising information, then the company has the same problem they do if it were democratic or non democratic. The same recourse to address the issue would also be available.

    I would also guess that many self-run orgs are created by people who ALSO subscribe to egalitarianism and equality. Most of the interest in self-run organisations I've seen are populated by people who believe in equality, so I would guess your observation has more to do with the type of people who create them, than some inevitable result of a coop. Such organisations appear horizontal because people of a socially and economic Left leaning bent create them as per their SOCIAL ideals. While I support the idea of people owning their work, and governing their workplace, it isn't compatible with delegation of authority (ie, management).

    Being kicked out something you created is indeed a disincentive, and that happens in non-democratic organisations too. I've seen people who have started organisations only to be booted out later too, and they weren't worker coops. It's perhaps unavoidable in cases where the person starting it has not claim. But then, the issue is one of property rights, and if property rights were not infringed, then really its a case of "too bad, so sad". This sounds harsh, but Capitalism is built on the idea if you lose something that is not yours, that is not our problem. So really, its a non argument, and claiming to be entitled to something which is not your property is not an argument against coops. This happens a lot in our current system, where people have a sense of entitlement to things they didn't earn, and change cannot happen because they would cry foul. Take for instance equity from an increase in house prices. People cry foul if the government might enact a policy to make housing more affordable, that might lower house prices (but still have them well above original purchase price), but its not a just claim. Likewise, if you are booted out LEGALLY, that really has no bearing on the issue. Too bad, so sad.

    Now, if you were smart, and held assets, then those assets are yours. If you owned the equipment and building, they are STILL YOURS. If you gave them to the workers collective, than you were just dumb. Keep in mind, it is only the organisation itself which is democratically run and cooperatively owned. Assets may still be owned by the Capitalist or the Entrepreneur. So if I bought a pizza shop, and started a democratically run shop, the building and equipment I paid for, is mine. They can't kick me out of the organisation because I would simply make the organisation trespassers when they enter the building. If your only contribution was setting it up, you are entitled to whatever agreed upon price for that set up. If you weren't compensated, again, that is your own problem because you agreed to it.

    This is fair and in the spirit of Capitalism. You enter into voluntary agreements, have rights to your property. It is your responsibility to ensure your agreements are amenable to you.

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  • From Arelor to Dennisk on Sat Jun 6 04:44:26 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sat Jun 06 2020 11:38 am

    I would also guess that many self-run orgs are created by people who ALSO subscribe to egalitarianism and equality. Most of the interest in self-run organisations I've seen are populated by people who believe in equality, so would guess your observation has more to do with the type of people who crea them, than some inevitable result of a coop. Such organisations appear horizontal because people of a socially and economic Left leaning bent creat them as per their SOCIAL ideals. While I support the idea of people owning their work, and governing their workplace, it isn't compatible with delegati of authority (ie, management).

    Hello,

    The organizations I am thinking about are not political and are not united by any political ideas. They are just joining up so they can compete with big firms and can ensure that all the members are producing goods that are to be sold at the same agreed price. They are not comrades, they are people making money. Most of them at least.

    If you agree to create an organization and forfeit any claim to it, and then kicked out of it later, well, you agreed that could happen, but that does not change the fact you are asking people to put a lot of work building something that can be taken away just too easily. Firms with small boards where everybody is in a similar standing can have their boards crash in disagreement so easily... I really don see it being stable at all except on some niche circumpstances.
  • From MRO@BBSESINF to The Lizard Master on Sat Jun 6 11:58:32 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: The Lizard Master to Dumas Walker on Tue Jun 02 2020 10:37 am

    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Dumas Walker to THE LIZARD MASTER on Mon Jun 01 2020 07:22 pm

    that's just one guy you know out of many many others who dont have t problem. so no, everyone shouldnt get it.

    we should depend on our immune systems

    That's what the shot does.

    As a shot for Wuhan Coronavirus does not exist yet, we don't really know what it will do... especially if they rush it to market too soon.

    We were talking about the Flu shot.

    i was talking about a possible shot for the corona virus.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From The Lizard Master@NITEEYES to MRO on Sat Jun 6 14:27:48 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Sat Jun 06 2020 11:58 am

    that's just one guy you know out of many many others who dont have t problem. so no, everyone shouldnt get it.

    we should depend on our immune systems

    That's what the shot does.

    As a shot for Wuhan Coronavirus does not exist yet, we don't really know what it will do... especially if they rush it to market too soon.

    We were talking about the Flu shot.

    i was talking about a possible shot for the corona virus.

    Apology accepted.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From MRO@BBSESINF to The Lizard Master on Sat Jun 6 18:49:02 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Sat Jun 06 2020 02:27 pm


    We were talking about the Flu shot.

    i was talking about a possible shot for the corona virus.

    Apology accepted.

    okay there, space cadet
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Arelor on Sun Jun 7 10:42:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sat Jun 06 2020 11:38 am

    I would also guess that many self-run orgs are created by people who ALSO subscribe to egalitarianism and equality. Most of the interest in self-run organisations I've seen are populated by people who believe in equality, so would guess your observation has more to do with the type of people who crea them, than some inevitable result of a coop. Such organisations appear horizontal because people of a socially and economic Left leaning bent creat them as per their SOCIAL ideals. While I support the idea of people owning their work, and governing their workplace, it isn't compatible with delegati of authority (ie, management).

    Hello,

    The organizations I am thinking about are not political and are not
    united by any political ideas. They are just joining up so they can compete with big firms and can ensure that all the members are
    producing goods that are to be sold at the same agreed price. They are
    not comrades, they are people making money. Most of them at least.

    If you agree to create an organization and forfeit any claim to it, and then kicked out of it later, well, you agreed that could happen, but
    that does not change the fact you are asking people to put a lot of
    work building something that can be taken away just too easily. Firms
    with small boards where everybody is in a similar standing can have
    their boards crash in disagreement so easily... I really don see it
    being stable at all except on some niche circumpstances.

    Capitalism has to build a set of morals where one class of people "owners", have more moral weight than others "employers". Labour of Capital could just as easily hire you to build a business, then fire you the moment it is done. This is also legitimate and legal. Employees can also build up a business and be discarded, this happens too. So you can see in the reverse, where you are hired to build a business, then discarded, is also legal and according to Capitalism, moral. So where does the complaint about people building up a business only to be kicked out come from? It comes for a misunderstanding of how the system works, and an assumption that one has such a right or a claim.

    So you can see there is no MORAL claim to owning a business that you built. Your only right is the fulfilment of a contract. There is no fundamental property right to own the means of production or the firm because there can be, and most definately are, patterns of contracts where the creator does not end up owning the product.

    People who think that the party engaging in a productive activity is determined by being the 'owner of the firm' are mistaken. The party undertaking the activity is determined by a pattern of contracts, not some fundamental property right. So defence of the current system because it may rip someone off are not really valid, because the assumption that one is entitled to own the business they built is based on a faulty premise, that is, firstly that you own the product of your labour, and secondly, that the productive activity that results from a pattern of contracts, is owned by someone who is the 'owner of the firm'.

    So as I said, what you end up with at the end of creating a business is based on contract, not fundamental property rights in Capitalism. Capitalism allows people to forgo fundamental property rights, and does so all the time through the employment contract. So to argue that the system I propose may have a flaw because someone might start a business and be kicked out doesn't make sense, it's a non argument. It can already happen, and losing the fruits of your labour is an integral part of it. As things are NOW it is encumbant on the entrepreneur to create favourable contracts, and many people do not have that opportunity at all to enter into contracts which respect the labour theory of property rights, because we legally enforce exceptions.

    No one is asking anyone to do anything. Under a democratically run situation, the fact that one enters into contracts and provides labour and owns the product doesn't change. What does change is the ability to alienate people from their labour, that is, to claim that what they produced is mine. Such a system is MORE congruent with property rights and the fundamentals of Capitalism. The reason for the opposition I think comes because modern Capitalism is skewed to benefit one class of people over another, financially and morally, and they don't want to lose that advantage.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Arelor to Dennisk on Sun Jun 7 02:39:31 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Jun 07 2020 10:42 am

    Capitalism has to build a set of morals where one class of people "owners", have more moral weight than others "employers". Labour of Capital could jus as easily hire you to build a business, then fire you the moment it is done.

    Hello,

    I don't really think they are the same cases at all.

    When you are hired to build something up, you take the contract instead of working on your own because it is more efficient for you to do so and use the resources of the employer for making a living.

    Example: if you get employed at a hammer factory, you make hammers using machines provided by the employer, probably training provided by the employer, and materials provided by the employer. You could set up your own workshop for manufacturing hammers, but you would have to gather the materials yourself, learn the trade, and find people who wants hammers. In the end, you have to decide whether using the resources of a capitalist agent for making a living is more efficient than building your own corral.

    In the first case, the emotional investment in the job is low and both employer and employee know the termination conditions of the contract.

    In the second case, you are pulling all the weight yourself and the emotional investment in the project is quite high.

    When you propose somebody to boot a democratic horizontal firm, what you are asking (because that is what I think you are doing) somebody to pull all the weight, using his own network of contacts, known-how, and resources, making a heavy emotional investment in something that can be taken away easily.

    When you hire somebody to boot a traditional firm, what you are doing is to provide starting resources to somebody who is going to get paid according to the job and is unlikely to be psychologically devastated if the management of the firm is transferred to somebody else. My family has been there, by the way.

    In conclusion, I don't think the cases are really comparable.
  • From Wizzkidd@NITEEYES to Moondog on Sun Jun 7 09:18:56 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Moondog to Wizzkidd on Sun May 31 2020 09:56 am

    Is that like what was happening in the movie Inception?

    I just watched that movie after your recommendation. Afterwards I told my wife she should watch it. She told me we already watched it at the movie theater. I don't remember it at all. I'm begining to realize I've been 3 dreams deep this whole time. I'm not 100% sure, though, so I'm afraid to exit.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Arelor on Sun Jun 7 21:22:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Jun 07 2020 10:42 am

    Capitalism has to build a set of morals where one class of people "owners", have more moral weight than others "employers". Labour of Capital could jus as easily hire you to build a business, then fire you the moment it is done.

    Hello,

    I don't really think they are the same cases at all.

    When you are hired to build something up, you take the contract instead
    of working on your own because it is more efficient for you to do so
    and use the resources of the employer for making a living.

    Example: if you get employed at a hammer factory, you make hammers
    using machines provided by the employer, probably training provided by
    the employer, and materials provided by the employer. You could set up your own workshop for manufacturing hammers, but you would have to
    gather the materials yourself, learn the trade, and find people who
    wants hammers. In the end, you have to decide whether using the
    resources of a capitalist agent for making a living is more efficient
    than building your own corral.

    In the first case, the emotional investment in the job is low and both employer and employee know the termination conditions of the contract.

    In the second case, you are pulling all the weight yourself and the emotional investment in the project is quite high.

    When you propose somebody to boot a democratic horizontal firm, what
    you are asking (because that is what I think you are doing) somebody to pull all the weight, using his own network of contacts, known-how, and resources, making a heavy emotional investment in something that can be taken away easily.

    When you hire somebody to boot a traditional firm, what you are doing
    is to provide starting resources to somebody who is going to get paid according to the job and is unlikely to be psychologically devastated
    if the management of the firm is transferred to somebody else. My
    family has been there, by the way.

    In conclusion, I don't think the cases are really comparable.

    I think there is a misunderstanding here about the property rights involved, which is understandable, because Capitalism is predicated on people misunderstanding property rights.

    Firstly, I must say that things like "emotional investment' and having to "learn the trade" are non-arguments. These are applicable also to employees who can be fired at the drop of a hat. They are appeals to emotion, and more oddly so, that these appeals are meant to benefit one class of people over an other. I hear similar appeals about people who are landlords and their "investment", emotional appeals to justify tax concessions and other subsidies because of their state of mind. It makes no sense, and is not warranted in our society. No one deserves a benefit simply because they believe they deserve it more.

    Secondly, I think you may be conflating property rights with investment. A democratically run organisation, where labour governs, has as its rightful property the result of production. You were talking about providing materials, etc. Labour is ONLY entited to what it produces, not what is provided. I am suggesting that labour is entitled to the product, but is also responsible for liabilities. Those liabilities include what you provide.

    Now, maybe some people who started coops left their assets as part of the coop, well, that is their fault. Their silliness doesn't invalidate the system. Just because people make mistakes, doesn't invalidate the system. People make mistakes with money, but we still allow individuals to control their own wealth.

    There are two property rights here, the property right of labour over what it produces, and the property right of the factor suppliers. If you are providing materials, resources, a building, whatever, those are your assets. The organisation uses up those assets, and is liable for their cost, to YOU. You are playing a dual role. One as a productive member of the organisation, the second as the Capitalist/factor supplier. So if I buy a Pizza Shop, equipment and materials to start, the member organisation which makes the pizzas does not automatically claim ownership of the assets it uses. They remain mine. You may be thinking that the singular organisation ends up owning all the assets, but that is wrong. If that were to happen, that would be theft. Their ONLY claim is the result of THEIR productive activity. If they decided they didn't want to work with you, then you would/could simply make them a trespasser on your property, pull your equipment, not only that, and financial assets which were built up, you would have a pre-agreed stake in, and that would be legally paid out to you too.

    You could even create a corporation, which hires out all its resources to others to use, the others being the coop. If they decide not to do business with you, they are left with nothing.

    Hope this clears it up a little. In short, your assets, your property does not transfer to the 'collective'. If the 'collective' created all the assets, then you can only claim your agreed portion. Either way, you end up with what you deserve, your input minus liabilities.



    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Arelor to Dennisk on Sun Jun 7 11:52:40 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Jun 07 2020 09:22 pm

    Hope this clears it up a little. In short, your assets, your property does transfer to the 'collective'. If the 'collective' created all the assets, t you can only claim your agreed portion. Either way, you end up with what yo deserve, your input minus liabilities.

    I know what you mean, but there are two fundamental points why I don't buy into the idea.

    First of all, I think you can't dissociate labor and assets. If I give you olives to make pizzas, those olives were produced via labor. If I lend you a pizza shop, I am lending you all the work that it took to create the pizza shop in the first place. You may argue that pizza shops are not expendable assets and thus are different from olives, but industrial instalations ARE expendable assets... they break down and have risks and require continuous maintenance.

    On the other hand, when I help create an organization, I am putting work in it. Even if I am not placing assets, it is taking time and effort. So if you are kicked out your work will go to waste even if you lose no assets (which you will, but that is not the point). Which is where you feel like crap and hang yourself because of that emotional investment that you say doesn't matter :-)
  • From MRO@BBSESINF to Wizzkidd on Sun Jun 7 22:38:42 2020
    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Wizzkidd to Moondog on Sun Jun 07 2020 09:18 am

    Re: Masks and Social Distance
    By: Moondog to Wizzkidd on Sun May 31 2020 09:56 am

    Is that like what was happening in the movie Inception?

    I just watched that movie after your recommendation. Afterwards I told my w she should watch it. She told me we already watched it at the movie theater I don't remember it at all. I'm begining to realize I've been 3 dreams deep this whole time. I'm not 100% sure, though, so I'm afraid to exit.


    no you just fell asleep
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Arelor on Mon Jun 8 12:59:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Jun 07 2020 09:22 pm

    Hope this clears it up a little. In short, your assets, your property does transfer to the 'collective'. If the 'collective' created all the assets, t you can only claim your agreed portion. Either way, you end up with what yo deserve, your input minus liabilities.

    I know what you mean, but there are two fundamental points why I don't
    buy into the idea.

    First of all, I think you can't dissociate labor and assets. If I give
    you olives to make pizzas, those olives were produced via labor. If I
    lend you a pizza shop, I am lending you all the work that it took to create the pizza shop in the first place. You may argue that pizza
    shops are not expendable assets and thus are different from olives, but industrial instalations ARE expendable assets... they break down and
    have risks and require continuous maintenance.

    On the other hand, when I help create an organization, I am putting
    work in it. Even if I am not placing assets, it is taking time and
    effort. So if you are kicked out your work will go to waste even if you lose no assets (which you will, but that is not the point). Which is
    where you feel like crap and hang yourself because of that emotional investment that you say doesn't matter :-)

    What I am proposing, is a way in which everyone has stronger property rights, and a universal application of the labour theory of property, that is, the idea that property rights are created through labour and you own what you make. You seem to be supporting this, but our current system systematically denies this to tens of million of people daily. The case where you have any control or right over your investment is NOW the exception, not the rule. People feeling like crap because they helped build up a business, and are left hanging is NOW the norm. What are you doing for these people?

    So to argue you are not sure, because a very, very small number of people might "feel bad" that they are only paid exactly their input value and don't have their feelings considered doesn't make any logical sense, considering that as things are NOW, millions are investing their time and emotions and getting shafted. But the Capitalist system indoctrinates us into thinking that one class of people "entrepreneurs/Capitalists" deserve a better moral standard than others "employees/labour", which is why you so readily bring up the person who creates a business as an objection, but disregard the situation of people doing the EXACT SAME THING, but who have entered into a contract where they are alienated from their labour, ie, hired.

    Your argument to me doesn't appear logical or consistent. You are arguing that considering of just property rights should factor emotional investment as well, with that having a real bearing on property rights, but don't argue this as a rule. That is, what rights should 'emotional investment' offer. If so please define. If not, then its not an argument. You are also separating the labour of someone working for themselves building a business, and someone under an employment contract, building a business. There is not qualitive diference here, except the existence of an invalid contract which creates two systems of property rights, and assigns one the 'victor' simply based on who win the contest of who hires whom.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Mind's Eye - mindseye.ddns.net - Melbourne Australia
  • From Arelor@HAVENS to Dennisk on Mon Jun 8 08:19:05 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Mon Jun 08 2020 12:59 pm

    What I am proposing, is a way in which everyone has stronger property rights and a universal application of the labour theory of property, that is, the i that property rights are created through labour and you own what you make. seem to be supporting this, but our current system systematically denies thi to tens of million of people daily. The case where you have any control or right over your investment is NOW the exception, not the rule. People feeli like crap because they helped build up a business, and are left hanging is N the norm. What are you doing for these people?

    So to argue you are not sure, because a very, very small number of people mi "feel bad" that they are only paid exactly their input value and don't have their feelings considered doesn't make any logical sense, considering that a things are NOW, millions are investing their time and emotions and getting shafted. But the Capitalist system indoctrinates us into thinking that one class of people "entrepreneurs/Capitalists" deserve a better moral standard than others "employees/labour", which is why you so readily bring up the per who creates a business as an objection, but disregard the situation of peopl doing the EXACT SAME THING, but who have entered into a contract where they alienated from their labour, ie, hired.

    Your argument to me doesn't appear logical or consistent. You are arguing t considering of just property rights should factor emotional investment as we with that having a real bearing on property rights, but don't argue this as rule. That is, what rights should 'emotional investment' offer. If so plea define. If not, then its not an argument. You are also separating the labo of someone working for themselves building a business, and someone under an

    I mentioned emotional investment to show there is a difference between building something for yourself and doing so for others. People feels different about each, and to me, that hints there is a difference. It is not a claim that you have a higher moral standard depending on how you feel.

    I neither claim somebody has a higher moral stand for being either an employer or an employee. Or, for that matter, any pro-Capitalist literature I remember from the opt of my head.

    I think your real problem lies with the concept of hireability. In which case I wonder what the difference between hiring a self-employed hole digger and hiring a hole digger megafirm is. Spoiler: I don't buy the marxist argument of the surplus value which is stolen by the hiring agent.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Arelor on Tue Jun 9 22:22:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Mon Jun 08 2020 12:59 pm

    What I am proposing, is a way in which everyone has stronger property rights and a universal application of the labour theory of property, that is, the i that property rights are created through labour and you own what you make. seem to be supporting this, but our current system systematically denies thi to tens of million of people daily. The case where you have any control or right over your investment is NOW the exception, not the rule. People feeli like crap because they helped build up a business, and are left hanging is N the norm. What are you doing for these people?

    So to argue you are not sure, because a very, very small number of people mi "feel bad" that they are only paid exactly their input value and don't have their feelings considered doesn't make any logical sense, considering that a things are NOW, millions are investing their time and emotions and getting shafted. But the Capitalist system indoctrinates us into thinking that one class of people "entrepreneurs/Capitalists" deserve a better moral standard than others "employees/labour", which is why you so readily bring up the per who creates a business as an objection, but disregard the situation of peopl doing the EXACT SAME THING, but who have entered into a contract where they alienated from their labour, ie, hired.

    Your argument to me doesn't appear logical or consistent. You are arguing t considering of just property rights should factor emotional investment as we with that having a real bearing on property rights, but don't argue this as rule. That is, what rights should 'emotional investment' offer. If so plea define. If not, then its not an argument. You are also separating the labo of someone working for themselves building a business, and someone under an

    I mentioned emotional investment to show there is a difference between building something for yourself and doing so for others. People feels different about each, and to me, that hints there is a difference. It
    is not a claim that you have a higher moral standard depending on how
    you feel.

    I neither claim somebody has a higher moral stand for being either an employer or an employee. Or, for that matter, any pro-Capitalist literature I remember from the opt of my head.

    I think your real problem lies with the concept of hireability. In
    which case I wonder what the difference between hiring a self-employed hole digger and hiring a hole digger megafirm is. Spoiler: I don't buy
    the marxist argument of the surplus value which is stolen by the hiring agent.

    I don't buy the Marxist argument either. Marxism presumes a stored 'labour value' in a product, an objective labour value which is added. The Marxist interpretation leads to silliness. A product can have its value increased simply by moving it from one end of the country to another! The idea of labour having marginal utility is still an attempt to square this circle, so Capitalism doesn't solve this problem either. There is a reason these ideologies cannot adequately address the problem. Their fundamental assumptions are flawed, and do not reflect what happens in reality. This is the problem here, not that there is an ideologically 'preferred' model, but that a system of self-employment would reflect what happens in reality. A system where labour is purchased and transferred is a fraudulent system, which means the pattern of property rights resulting is fraudulent. Labour cannot be purchased, the fact that a contract exist which state that it is transferred doesn't make this so.

    As for the different 'classes', this is evident in prevailing ideas and attitudes towards contests for resources and rights. It is not necessary for it to be written to exist. For example, Christians will claim that some parts of the bible describe laws which are applicable, and others which are not applicable, but there is no clear guide which states which are and which aren't, yet it is generally understood. All ideological systems must contain a hidden code which makes them viable. Political Correctness is another with an 'unwritten code'. For decades it was never explicitely said that there was a heirarchy of identity inbuilt to the system, but one could easy determine what it was from action.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Arelor@HAVENS to Dennisk on Tue Jun 9 14:26:13 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Tue Jun 09 2020 10:22 pm

    means the pattern of property rights resulting is fraudulent. Labour cannot be
    purchased, the fact that a contract exist which state that it is transferred doesn't make this so.

    You are right: labor cannot be stored in a box and used up when you see fit. However, you can secure
    future labor.

    Here is an example: hay harvesting season is about, but rainy weather is not going to allow hay
    collection anytime soon. Hay gets ruined it soaked. Your friend Joe Trump invites you to a beer and asks
    you for help. He ask you to show up when raining stops and help load hay in a truck. You agree.

    There you have it. Jow Trump secured labor to be used sometime in the future via agreement.

    A day later Joe Trump dies of hammervirus and her daughter Hillary Trump inherits the hay fields and the
    truck. So when it stops raining you show up anyway and help load the hay.

    So, hmm, I think you cannot put labor in a box, but I think it is prety much transferable in time and
    from a person to another.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Tracker1@TRN to Dennisk on Sun Jun 14 23:12:06 2020
    On 5/29/2020 1:31 AM, Dennisk wrote:
    Fascism isn't socialism, thought some have argued that it is a type of socialism. It could be argued that the Soviet Union wasn't really Socialist either. In practice though, Fascist Italy and Nationalist Socialist Germany were NOT Socialist. The workers did not own the means of production.

    Hitler spoke very much like a Marxist, that is true. But in practice, Nationalist Socialist Germany, it didn't move towards Socialism.

    Fascism isn't quite the same as capitalism either. That said, if you
    actually talk to Socialists for a while, their ideas tend to align with Communism much like Communist Russia or China, and I can't help but feel
    this is the same path that already killed hundreds of millions when used
    in practice.

    I am a sort of "Socialist", but "Socialism" today is equated to Marxism. To be
    a Socialist is considered to be a Marxist, and therein lies the problem. There
    are alternatives to Capitalism that are not Marxist Socialism. We are stuck with this belief that it is one or the other, and as a result, are unable to move on deep seated economic problems. We have to move away from the current Capitalist/Neo-Liberal model, but as long as Marxism acts as an effective boogeyman, we are going to stagnate idelogically, and decline.

    It's also possible to regulate or even have government backed
    competition to corporations without going fully Socialist.

    The postal service is probably the closest example, but is so tightly
    coupled to congressional oversight, they aren't able to adapt well. All
    the same, FedEx, UPS and others continue to exist and compete.

    I'd like to see similar in terms of federal programs for healthcare and include those covered by federal dollars for health insurance (medicare, medicaid, va retirement, govt employees, elected officials etc. Take
    all of that funding, create a non-profit insurance corporation that
    covers those same classes (with a single policy) and allow for anyone (including those with employees) to buy policy coverage. Combined with
    some changes to insurance requirements (fiduciary responsibility) and
    patent reform with licensing requirements (multi-sourcing required) for prescriptions it could be much better without having the government take
    over the sector.

    I tend to lean libertarian for most things, I am not a fan of the power
    the govt grants corporations and feel for the most part, solutions that encourage competition are best. Sometimes that means creating
    competition with the power of government, but takover is not something
    I'm a fan of.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Tracker1@TRN to Moondog on Sun Jun 14 23:15:57 2020
    On 5/29/2020 11:53 AM, Moondog wrote:

    Recycling is largely a jobs program.. not only that, but most recycling
    can't actually be recycled and is a problem of sorting... may as well
    just use a single bin and sort it all together.

    Our society and manufacturing isn't geared toward recycling. Materials such as aluminum and glass are easily melted back down, however the plastics we use are designed with properties that help them serve their purpose with no pl
    ans for recovery.

    Plastics are largely a byproduct of fuel consumption. Without reducing
    fuel consumption, there's very little incentive to reduce/recycle
    plastics in any meaningful way. Also, the alternate channels and costs associated with recycling plastics are limited.

    I'm not saying we shouldn't try to reduce/reuse/recycle only that the
    final part of the three isn't necessarily practical.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Tracker1 on Mon Jun 15 09:46:00 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Tracker1 to Moondog on Sun Jun 14 2020 11:15 pm

    On 5/29/2020 11:53 AM, Moondog wrote:

    Recycling is largely a jobs program.. not only that, but most recycling >> can't actually be recycled and is a problem of sorting... may as well
    just use a single bin and sort it all together.

    Our society and manufacturing isn't geared toward recycling. Materials su as aluminum and glass are easily melted back down, however the plastics we use are designed with properties that help them serve their purpose with n ans for recovery.

    Plastics are largely a byproduct of fuel consumption. Without reducing
    fuel consumption, there's very little incentive to reduce/recycle
    plastics in any meaningful way. Also, the alternate channels and costs associated with recycling plastics are limited.

    I'm not saying we shouldn't try to reduce/reuse/recycle only that the
    final part of the three isn't necessarily practical.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS


    I agree. Some materials such as special plastics cannot be melted down or broken down and reconstituted easily. Reclamation of base materials is only one facet of recycling. Re-purposing is the second category, where some materials are broken down or pressed into bales or blocks to make roading or construction materials.

















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  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Tracker1 on Wed Jun 17 20:51:00 2020
    Tracker1 wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 5/29/2020 1:31 AM, Dennisk wrote:
    Fascism isn't socialism, thought some have argued that it is a type of socialism. It could be argued that the Soviet Union wasn't really Socialist either. In practice though, Fascist Italy and Nationalist Socialist Germany were NOT Socialist. The workers did not own the means of production.

    Hitler spoke very much like a Marxist, that is true. But in practice, Nationalist Socialist Germany, it didn't move towards Socialism.

    Fascism isn't quite the same as capitalism either. That said, if you actually talk to Socialists for a while, their ideas tend to align with Communism much like Communist Russia or China, and I can't help but
    feel this is the same path that already killed hundreds of millions
    when used in practice.

    You will also find, as I did, they generally don't like the working class. I've spoken to many Communists who 'opened up' to me and their goal is control where they are in charge. It is driven by resentment against the West, against straight, white people, against the establishment. It is almost messianic.

    I am a sort of "Socialist", but "Socialism" today is equated to Marxism. To
    b
    e
    a Socialist is considered to be a Marxist, and therein lies the problem.
    Ther
    e
    are alternatives to Capitalism that are not Marxist Socialism. We are stuck with this belief that it is one or the other, and as a result, are unable to move on deep seated economic problems. We have to move away from the
    current
    Capitalist/Neo-Liberal model, but as long as Marxism acts as an effective boogeyman, we are going to stagnate idelogically, and decline.

    It's also possible to regulate or even have government backed
    competition to corporations without going fully Socialist.

    The postal service is probably the closest example, but is so tightly coupled to congressional oversight, they aren't able to adapt well.
    All the same, FedEx, UPS and others continue to exist and compete.

    I'd like to see similar in terms of federal programs for healthcare and include those covered by federal dollars for health insurance
    (medicare, medicaid, va retirement, govt employees, elected officials
    etc. Take all of that funding, create a non-profit insurance
    corporation that covers those same classes (with a single policy) and allow for anyone (including those with employees) to buy policy
    coverage. Combined with some changes to insurance requirements
    (fiduciary responsibility) and patent reform with licensing
    requirements (multi-sourcing required) for prescriptions it could be
    much better without having the government take over the sector.

    I tend to lean libertarian for most things, I am not a fan of the power the govt grants corporations and feel for the most part, solutions that encourage competition are best. Sometimes that means creating
    competition with the power of government, but takover is not something
    I'm a fan of.

    I am for a smaller government too. I am especially for multiple competing loci of power, so that one section of society cannot hold hostage any other section.
    The government should be counterbalanced by other forces. Companies cannot use their position to shape society.

    A very large part of the reason I support democratically run workplaces, and an ownership economy, is because having a small number of people get to decide what companies which consist of hundreds or thousands of people do, is pathological. We are entering dangerous territory where large companies are able to sway thought, social development, and force ideological adherence through "values" (ie, fire people because of "values" that are not related to production). Companies, not the state, is the greater threat to freedom of speech, and perhaps the wellbeing of our own civilisation. Especially in the USA. If you find that you cannot get a job, a loan, or even a bank account because a small number of ideologues which control these companies don't like deviation from their orthodoxy, you are in a nightmarish dystopia, one that perhaps could have been avoided. Employees ARE citizens too. Companies must NOT have a right to take away our freedom of speech, of thought and opinion, yet so, so many people seem to think this is OK.


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    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Moondog@CAVEBBS to Dennisk on Thu Jun 18 10:34:00 2020
    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Tracker1 on Wed Jun 17 2020 08:51 pm


    I am for a smaller government too. I am especially for multiple competing l of power, so that one section of society cannot hold hostage any other secti
    The government should be counterbalanced by other forces. Companies cannot use their position to shape society.

    A very large part of the reason I support democratically run workplaces, and ownership economy, is because having a small number of people get to decide what companies which consist of hundreds or thousands of people do, is pathological. We are entering dangerous territory where large companies are able to sway thought, social development, and force ideological adherence through "values" (ie, fire people because of "values" that are not related t production). Companies, not the state, is the greater threat to freedom of speech, and perhaps the wellbeing of our own civilisation. Especially in th USA. If you find that you cannot get a job, a loan, or even a bank account because a small number of ideologues which control these companies don't lik deviation from their orthodoxy, you are in a nightmarish dystopia, one that perhaps could have been avoided. Employees ARE citizens too. Companies mus NOT have a right to take away our freedom of speech, of thought and opinion, yet so, so many people seem to think this is OK.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    I have mixed opinions about companies and corporations. At a smaller company the workers may be in clear view or have the attention of thos ewho make big decisions, and it's clear they fill a potential role in the company and may
    be compensated accordingly. Other places are so vast, workers are cogs in
    the machine. The common thread is they do not have to work there. The employee is not a conscript or draftee. They apply or interview in, then
    stick around either because it beats having no job or there's no one else hiring or meeting the conditions they consider leaving for.

    Regarding freedom of speech at work, one must remember if part of your job is dealing or being exposed to customers and share holders, you are a representat ive of that company on company time. What you do or say on your own time is different unless it deals with company secrets or proprietary information. I see way too many people gripe about their jobs on social media, however they must be careful about what they say that could be viewed by a client or competitor and used in a negative way.

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  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Dennisk on Fri Jun 19 13:24:00 2020
    On 06-17-20 20:51, Dennisk wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    I am for a smaller government too. I am especially for multiple
    competing loci of power, so that one section of society cannot hold hostage any other section.
    The government should be counterbalanced by other forces. Companies cannot use their position to shape society.

    This idea makes a lot of sense. Having power distributed relatively evenly among many smaller centres gives a lot more scope for debate and negotiation, as well as a better balance in society.

    A very large part of the reason I support democratically run
    workplaces, and an ownership economy, is because having a small number
    of people get to decide what companies which consist of hundreds or thousands of people do, is pathological. We are entering dangerous territory where large companies are able to sway thought, social development, and force ideological adherence through "values" (ie, fire

    I agree, the trend towards larger companies with this sort of power is very worrying. The idea of a democratically owned company is appealing to me as well.


    ... Before you find your handsome prince, you've got to kiss a lot of frogs. --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Moondog on Fri Jun 19 20:41:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: not my president?
    By: Dennisk to Tracker1 on Wed Jun 17 2020 08:51 pm


    I am for a smaller government too. I am especially for multiple competing l of power, so that one section of society cannot hold hostage any other secti
    The government should be counterbalanced by other forces. Companies cannot use their position to shape society.

    A very large part of the reason I support democratically run workplaces, and ownership economy, is because having a small number of people get to decide what companies which consist of hundreds or thousands of people do, is pathological. We are entering dangerous territory where large companies are able to sway thought, social development, and force ideological adherence through "values" (ie, fire people because of "values" that are not related t production). Companies, not the state, is the greater threat to freedom of speech, and perhaps the wellbeing of our own civilisation. Especially in th USA. If you find that you cannot get a job, a loan, or even a bank account because a small number of ideologues which control these companies don't lik deviation from their orthodoxy, you are in a nightmarish dystopia, one that perhaps could have been avoided. Employees ARE citizens too. Companies mus NOT have a right to take away our freedom of speech, of thought and opinion, yet so, so many people seem to think this is OK.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    I have mixed opinions about companies and corporations. At a smaller company the workers may be in clear view or have the attention of thos ewho make big decisions, and it's clear they fill a potential role in
    the company and may be compensated accordingly. Other places are so
    vast, workers are cogs in the machine. The common thread is they do
    not have to work there. The employee is not a conscript or draftee.
    They apply or interview in, then stick around either because it beats having no job or there's no one else hiring or meeting the conditions
    they consider leaving for.

    Regarding freedom of speech at work, one must remember if part of your
    job is dealing or being exposed to customers and share holders, you are
    a representat ive of that company on company time. What you do or say
    on your own time is different unless it deals with company secrets or proprietary information. I see way too many people gripe about their
    jobs on social media, however they must be careful about what they say that could be viewed by a client or competitor and used in a negative
    way.

    They key here is ON COMPANY TIME. If you, on company time, lets say, while visiting a client, or performing an inspection, behave in a way contrary to the interests of the company, they are indeed justified in reconsidering your suitability. You have a duty to the firm. I heard of a Taco Bell which told an employee not to wear a "Black Lives Matter" T-Shirt at work. I think that is justified, especially if that person is facing customers. That is not censorship because the person is using their position to pursue a personal agenda.

    But that point is not relevant, because for the most part, the unjustified firings are for what people do in their private lives, or even, what someone associated with them does. A company has no right to terminate employment, because your PRIVATE values don't jibe with theirs. The only exception would be where there is a clear conflict, that is, you work at a company which produces product X, but in your private time you call for people to boycott product X. But if your action is not in direct conflict with what the product/service the company offers, they have no right. And no, they cannot claim a conflict in "values". In Australia, we do have some protection, as weak as they are, which allow people to appeal seemingly arbitrary firings.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Mind's Eye - mindseye.ddns.net - Melbourne Australia
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Vk3jed on Fri Jun 19 20:44:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 06-17-20 20:51, Dennisk wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    I am for a smaller government too. I am especially for multiple
    competing loci of power, so that one section of society cannot hold hostage any other section.
    The government should be counterbalanced by other forces. Companies cannot use their position to shape society.

    This idea makes a lot of sense. Having power distributed relatively evenly among many smaller centres gives a lot more scope for debate and negotiation, as well as a better balance in society.

    A very large part of the reason I support democratically run
    workplaces, and an ownership economy, is because having a small number
    of people get to decide what companies which consist of hundreds or thousands of people do, is pathological. We are entering dangerous territory where large companies are able to sway thought, social development, and force ideological adherence through "values" (ie, fire

    I agree, the trend towards larger companies with this sort of power is very worrying. The idea of a democratically owned company is appealing
    to me as well.

    The people who engage in productive activity, should have a degree of control over the means in which that is engaged, and how the product of that activity is invested/distributed. Democratically run companies is the way which this could be done, most in line with our Western values, and better than say the Communist approach where the state acts as if it represents the people. Other solutions I'm sure, could be thought of.

    Either way though, one must ask how we can get to a state where a nation where millions of people work to create, ends up controlled and owned by a few. This clearly indicates a problem, and we often allow ourselves to get bamboozled by the details which "justify" this.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Mind's Eye - mindseye.ddns.net - Melbourne Australia
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sat Jun 20 16:20:00 2020
    On 06-19-20 20:44, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The people who engage in productive activity, should have a degree of control over the means in which that is engaged, and how the product of that activity is invested/distributed. Democratically run companies is the way which this could be done, most in line with our Western values,

    And when people are invested in their company, you gain employee satisfaction and productivity, among other things.

    and better than say the Communist approach where the state acts as if
    it represents the people. Other solutions I'm sure, could be thought
    of.

    I'm sure there's other creative, but workable solutions.

    Either way though, one must ask how we can get to a state where a
    nation where millions of people work to create, ends up controlled and owned by a few. This clearly indicates a problem, and we often allow ourselves to get bamboozled by the details which "justify" this.

    And you've hit on the problem. And it's a problem, whether those few people are "government" or "corporate elite".


    ... "Klingons do NOT procrastinate! It is a...TACTICAL delay!" -- Worf
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    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Vk3jed on Sun Jun 21 13:26:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 06-19-20 20:44, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The people who engage in productive activity, should have a degree of control over the means in which that is engaged, and how the product of that activity is invested/distributed. Democratically run companies is the way which this could be done, most in line with our Western values,

    And when people are invested in their company, you gain employee satisfaction and productivity, among other things.

    and better than say the Communist approach where the state acts as if
    it represents the people. Other solutions I'm sure, could be thought
    of.

    I'm sure there's other creative, but workable solutions.

    Either way though, one must ask how we can get to a state where a
    nation where millions of people work to create, ends up controlled and owned by a few. This clearly indicates a problem, and we often allow ourselves to get bamboozled by the details which "justify" this.

    And you've hit on the problem. And it's a problem, whether those few people are "government" or "corporate elite".

    Yes, for too long we've believed that if one ideology is in power (markets) over another (statism), then we will be OK. The problem isn't whether we have a market system or not, its whether *WE* have sway and control of the system.


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    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Mind's Eye - mindseye.ddns.net - Melbourne Australia
  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sun Jun 21 19:10:00 2020
    On 06-21-20 13:26, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Yes, for too long we've believed that if one ideology is in power (markets) over another (statism), then we will be OK. The problem
    isn't whether we have a market system or not, its whether *WE* have
    sway and control of the system.

    That makes sense to me - control of the system matters in the hands of the people more than the system itself. And theoretically, that's also a much easier adjustment to make than trying to totally change the econimic system - keep the basics of what we have, but fix the pathological parts.


    ... Deja-Moo: When you feel you've seen this bullcrap before.
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  • From Dennisk@MINDSEYE to Vk3jed on Tue Jun 23 19:56:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 06-21-20 13:26, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Yes, for too long we've believed that if one ideology is in power (markets) over another (statism), then we will be OK. The problem
    isn't whether we have a market system or not, its whether *WE* have
    sway and control of the system.

    That makes sense to me - control of the system matters in the hands of
    the people more than the system itself. And theoretically, that's also
    a much easier adjustment to make than trying to totally change the econimic system - keep the basics of what we have, but fix the pathological parts.

    In reality, it is CLOSER to the true ethos of Capitalism and Democracy. One of the fundamental tenets of Capitalism, is that property rights are created by acts of labour, that is to say, labour itself is the rightful owner of property it creates. We actually have a system whereby we create "exceptions" in companies, where this property right is treated as something alienable, that one can agree to suspend it. It is a great irony that todays Capitalism is actually reliant on creating and justifying this exception, which I think is one of the reasons it becomes pathological.

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    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Vk3jed@FREEWAY to Dennisk on Wed Jun 24 19:11:00 2020
    On 06-23-20 19:56, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    In reality, it is CLOSER to the true ethos of Capitalism and Democracy.
    One of the fundamental tenets of Capitalism, is that property rights
    are created by acts of labour, that is to say, labour itself is the rightful owner of property it creates. We actually have a system
    whereby we create "exceptions" in companies, where this property right
    is treated as something alienable, that one can agree to suspend it.
    It is a great irony that todays Capitalism is actually reliant on
    creating and justifying this exception, which I think is one of the reasons it becomes pathological.

    Sounds like a lot of ideas in society - getting corrupted by vested interests.



    ... I tried to drown my problems.. they like beer too!
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